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Philosophy/religion

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Who Wrote The Gospels?

940 replies

headinhands · 10/04/2014 08:53

"Matthew contains 606 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke."

A good diagram here

OP posts:
capsium · 22/04/2014 08:02

BigDorrit as I said in my earlier posts, I believe everybody experiences Cognitive Dissonance, it is how we learn and refine our views. Otherwise you'd still be like a very small child mesmerised by games of 'Peepo'...

I am just saying we should not be afraid of Cognitive Dissonance, as it is in our undue haste to rid ourselves of it, that we remain ignorant. Undue haste leads to dismissing new information too readily, because it does not fit our world view or rejecting lessons from the past too readily because new information appears to conflict with them.

The Cognitive Dissonance I referred to regarding yourself, BigDorrit is that you deny ever experiencing any, or that it serves a purpose, or that it is something that should not be feared. You seem to view Cognitive Dissonance as a weakness...I don't.

niminypiminy · 22/04/2014 09:56

I think capsium makes a good point here. To be truly a critical thinker means that you allow the possibility that your views will be changed by what another person says -- and that is never a comfortable process. It is very hard to admit that your own cherished views might be wrong, and that you might have to change them. It is very hard, too, to see cognitive dissonance as positive, because it isn't comfortable. But the ability to tolerate it is vital. As the poet John Keats said, to be a Man of Achievement (and I don't think that's a restrictive use of Man), you must have 'Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason'.

I was brought up in a family of atheists the third generation of atheists in fact and for most of my life was an atheist. The period when I had to re-examine the received ideas of my atheist family, and those of the largely atheist social circles I move in, was one of the most uncomfortable periods of my life. I had a bad case of cognitive dissonance: my existing ideas no longer matched reality, no longer described the world adequately.

For me, Christianity is a theory in the sense that Evolution by means of Natural Selection was a theory for Darwin: the explanation which most simply and elegantly explains observed phenomena, even though evidence for some of its propositions is lacking. It is not that I do not have doubts and questions, do not experience uncertainty and mystery -- I do. But I am more capable of remaining in them now. I hope I have learned something about how it feels to be changed by views that are different from my own, and to see that process as valuable, not fearful.

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 10:32

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ShippingForecast · 22/04/2014 10:58

"To be truly a critical thinker means that you allow the possibility that your views will be changed by what another person says ..."

Well, if the other person's opinion can be backed up by evidence, then there's the scientific process right there - no good scientist would cling stubbornly on to an old viewpoint when newer, conflicting evidence comes to light.

It would only be cognitive dissonance where the newer evidence created some sort of psychological problem when the person tries to simultaneously hold both the old and the new view.

I don't think you can claim that the Bible provides evidence for god in the same way that Darwin provided evidence for the theory of evolution, by the way, it's just not comparable.

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 11:03

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BackOnlyBriefly · 22/04/2014 11:37

I don't know where this idea is coming from that cognitive dissonance is about bravely facing up to ideas. It's the result of not facing them. Of desperately trying to pretend that the ideas that you know have been proven wrong are still true.

capsium · 22/04/2014 12:23

I don't know where this idea is coming from that cognitive dissonance is about bravely facing up to ideas. It's the result of not facing them. Of desperately trying to pretend that the ideas that you know have been proven wrong are still true.

Cognitive Dissonance exists when there is conflicting evidence, inconclusive evidence. Not fearing Cognitive Dissonance allows a person to possess it, and cope with it, until more evidence comes along, instead of rejecting new evidence or previously held views too hastily.

Where we probably differ is how we would define sufficient evidence. It takes a lot to convince me that evidence is conclusive, I usually spot more evidence which counters it. This is why I have to rely on Faith, and my Faith is with Christ.

capsium · 22/04/2014 13:07

Think. Please.

I am doing. It is my toleration of Cognitive Dissonance, that allows me to do this. Otherwise I could just agree with you and be finished, or flat out disagree with you and end the discussion.

I bother posting for the reason that I can see the danger of dismissing new evidence too hastily (what you are accusing people with Christian beliefs of) is wrong, but can also see the flip side of rejecting previously learnt lessons too hastily is wrong too. Both can be symptoms of Cognitive Dissonance.

What I am advocating is balance, which involves being able to tolerate Cognitive Dissonance, in order to fully consider a matter and all the evidence.

capsium · 22/04/2014 13:13

And in light of insufficient evidence, we all have to rely on assumptions in (good) faith. The question then becomes, 'Where do you place your faith?'

rabbitrisen · 22/04/2014 14:45

BOB. That long list of yours. Some of them are actually right Grin

Not in the least sure where Cognititve Dissonance comes into any of this.
There isnt modern evidence in the way most people want it.

rabbitrisen · 22/04/2014 14:47

In reply to question from early sunday and before.

This thread to a certian degree is trying to make Set A rules [humans'] fit Set B rules [God's]
The two sets dont always fit.

BackOnlyBriefly · 22/04/2014 15:59

Cognitive Dissonance exists when there is conflicting evidence, inconclusive evidence

That's not what it means at all. If you look up what it really means you won't want to have it.

merriam-webster.com - psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously.

What you are referring to is when we don't know which is true which is entirely different.

I have no problem with finding out that I'm wrong about something so there can be no psychological conflict. For me it's just about learning something new. If I have inconclusive evidence for two different explanations then I simply don't know which is right. That's fine too. I won't feel conflicted at not knowing.

rabbitrisen which ones? Are you one of those MNers who claim that god reserves parking spaces for you? Smile

capsium · 22/04/2014 16:25

Back but if you have a belief concerning something, based on evidence, then there is new evidence which is contradictory and a new conclusion, suggested by the new evidence, then there can be Cognitive Dissonance. A person can have two possible contradictory / incongruous theories in mind at once, for a time at least. This is what I was referring too.

My own experience is that a lot of what appears contradictory, actually is not. This usually occurs when context alters the situation entirely, ie. what is true / right for one situation is not true / right for another.

However we sometimes have to make a decision in the face of inconclusive evidence and some degree of Cognitive Dissonance. The knowledge of what is true for every context has not been reached. It is in these situations that a person must make assumptions in good faith.

capsium · 22/04/2014 16:30

Back ..and I did look it up. I posted the link of the definition, of Cognitive Dissonance, upthread.

However I have come to understand that we can understand one piece of writing entirely differently to each other.

You could just dismiss my understanding as wrong, however other people don't. I'm not uneducated, I do understand English, at least to some extent, I have a degree in it!

capsium · 22/04/2014 17:12

The ironic thing is the phenomenon Cognitive Dissonance could be seen to cause Cognitive Dissonance itself.

As in:

Cognitive Dissonance causes me unrest. Cognitive Dissonance is good for me as it spurs me on to making a thorough re-examination of my beliefs in the hope of finding resolution.

You could of course avoid this, avoid the dissonance by dismissing the new theories which are incongruous to your beliefs. Or you could avoid the dissonance by dismissing what you previously believed.

I like to examine beliefs though and I am a Christian. However sometimes I do need time to reflect before giving my time over to absorbing any new information, as I think everyone does. Hence having to tolerate Cognitive Dissonance for a time. But if there were no questioning, no examining I would not have to tolerate it, but I find new exploration exciting. What others say is not always new to me though, I might have already thought extensively concerning what they are saying and concluded I can reconcile it well enough. Explaining it, to someone who has not gone through the same exploration, is another matter though!

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 18:20

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capsium · 22/04/2014 18:23

I enjoy it though! Grin

It is interesting, compelling, I like puzzles.

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 18:47

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capsium · 22/04/2014 19:04

BigDorrit

Add message | Report | Message poster BigDorrit Tue 22-Apr-14 18:47:00
It's not a puzzle though. It's insisting something is one way when all the evidence tells you it's the other way. I'm with Back, I think you really don't seem to understand the concept properly, but have decided that it means what you would like it to mean!

I think this is what you'd like to be true. I actually do not think you are seeing the full picture, you don't have a very rounded view. In real life there is often not enough evidence, to be conclusive, for every context. We make decisions based on faith, which I can do, quite effectively, as I can exercise Faith.

Bearing two conflicting theories in mind, helps achieve balance, when talking hypothetically or having compassion for others. It helps you mull over which theory is correct in which context. I do, as I think I have previously explained, consider context an extremely important factor, as it is only my Christian Faith that keeps me from being completely distracted by Post Modernism / Relativism.

capsium · 22/04/2014 19:10

...and I usually sleep pretty well.

With all this Cognitive Dissonance, if it was so uncomfortable, you'd expect it to keep you awake a night...

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 19:13

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capsium · 22/04/2014 19:19

It's just a case of being open to all the possibilities Dorrit. The sense in it? I think it makes you like people and life better generally.

capsium · 22/04/2014 19:20

That is I have no list like Back does, although I am a little wary of those who seem very keen to judge.

ShippingForecast · 22/04/2014 19:58

Capsium - you may well be a lovely non-judgemental person, but ime organised religion usually has a hefty wallop of judginess at its root. Which can be a double-edged sword, depending on the fallible humans exercising it.

BigDorrit · 22/04/2014 20:01

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