Who Wrote The Gospels?

[headinhands]

"Matthew contains 606 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke."

A good diagram here

What is truth? (copyright P. Pilate )

What kind of ruth about its contents do you mean? And philosophy is partly about showing how there are big complicated questions underneath everyday presuppositions.

or even truth about its contents

Shipping Those technological things would have being in the realms of belief and imagination before they were actually invented. Think how some of Da Vinci's ideas were received in his time.

We still do not have absolute, complete knowledge of physics or biology, there is much we do not know yet. We cannot create life out of dust, dead matter, ourselves. We cannot dematerialize and rematerialize ourselves at will.

We can never know exactly who write it and why, and most importantly, that it has any connection with supernatural deities (unless of course some evidence of the supernatural connection turns up, which it hasn't so far).

caps - I don't think it's exactly breaking news that we don't know everything about how space, the universe and everything works.

I don't see the connection between that and pretending you have supernatural knowledge gleaned from the Bible.

The bible has some very interesting passages:

KINGS 6:29 says: "So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."

If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

— Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Exodus 21: 20-21
When a man strikes his slave or slave girl with a stick and the slave dies on the spot, he must be punished. But he is not to be punished if the slave survives for one day or two, because the slave is his property.

Exodus 22: 18
You must not allow a witch to live.

We can never know exactly who write it and why

Well, there are some very good working hypotheses that have enough circumstantial evidence around them to convince most historical scholars. So, for example, it is generally accepted that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (the Pentateuch) was compiled from a number of earlier sources by Temple scribes during the period of the Jewish exile in Babylon (6th cent BCE). The book of Isaiah is the work of two, possibly three separate writers and can be dated to the years before, during and after the exile. The books of Kings 1&2 and Chronicles 1&2 tell the history of the same period in Israel's history from different perspective because they were written in different parts of the divided kingdom.

That, I grant you, isn't the same as saying that 1 Samuel was written by a known named person on an exact date. But it is as much as can be said for very many ancient manuscripts whose authenticity is in no doubt.

that it has any connection with supernatural deities

As far as I am aware there is no claim in the Bible that it was written by God. It is a human response to God -- it's about God and his involvement in human history. So not quite sure what point you are making there, though I can see you think it is a clever one.

deepinthewoods we can all play out of context proof-texting.

"it's about God and his involvement in human history."

Er, is that not a connection then?

"Well, there are some very good working hypotheses that have enough circumstantial evidence around them to convince most historical scholars."

The point about a hypothesis is that it can be tested, isn't it? If it can't be proved, it's just a theory.

Sorry, 'tested' not 'proved'.

No, a theory is a generally accepted explanation of observed phenomena hence the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection even if evidence is lacking at key points -- as in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection.

"No, a theory is a generally accepted explanation of observed phenomena"

No - a theory is just that, a theory. It can be a good or bad one, generally accepted or largely doubted.

Well, of course, I was meaning the way the term is used in science.

"Well, of course, I was meaning the way the term is used in science."

Okay - my description covers a looser meaning. I don't see how you can apply the scientific method to historical texts really? Here's a wiki definition:

In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science.

niminy what do you think it says that you get pissed off at me exploring areas that are tricky for you and Capsium defends me.

:)

Both Capsium and rabbitrisen know that I think their beliefs are pure fiction, but they have managed to be more patient than I have lately.

Then we have this.

Of course there will be ignorant people, but most Christians who are serious about their faith tend to find this kind of stuff out - there are those who don't care very much and have a very simple kind of faith and that's fine as well I think - but in general we have reason for a reason

Madhairday, You ought to be embarrassed at having made that statement. In effect you have walked into a room and announced to the atheists that only stupid Christians believe in that nonsense. But some of the Christians standing right there next to you believe it.

You and Niminy both talk as though yours is the official religion and yet I bet if we looked closely we'd find that you don't even entirely agree with each other.

I'm also remembering all the times on here when I said that the gospels were written later and I was attacked on all sides by the MN scholars who were sure that this was atheist lies. I wonder what I'd find if I searched back through those threads and who would be arguing which side.

Ah Back, I wasn't defending you, exactly, I was just saying regarding loving being provocative, I can be as bad (or good depending on how you view it) as you.

I think you have to remember Christians are people, we are all individual human beings and our understanding develops at our own individual pace, and in our own individual way.

No one should be embarrassed either, mistake or no mistake because we all come to understanding in different ways and everyone makes mistakes - not that I'm absolutely sure Madhair made a mistake in what she said.

....I've read some Machiavelli too, divide and conquer is it?

deepinthewoods. The verses that you posted are interesting. I did not know that some of them were in the Old Testament.

But we have the New Testament rules now. The New Testament ones supercede the Old ones. Some they stop, some they add to, some they explain better, and a whole lot are cancelled.

Much like laws today I suppose.

So everything in the OT is rubbish?

You perfectly well understand the meaning of supercede.

God got fed up of burnt offerings and people doing the rules to his face, but a whole lot of other bad behaviour behind his back.
So He sent his son Jesus Christ. And a new set of rules and further understandings.

No deep, the law was fulfilled in Jesus, through Christ we are redeemed.

Christians are under the New Covenant of Grace.

^ what she said! Probably, if I understand it correctly. There are times like this that I would like to be more intelligent! Not very often, but just occasionally!
It would help me to understand the book of Revelation better. That would be nice. And the gospel of John.And Hebrews.
Any christians like to pray for me to have more understanding please?
Any christians, and non christians want some prayers asked for them?

Yes the New Testament is full of great advice.

The people of Crete are "always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies." 1:12 Titus

..the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Jesus says that we should fear God (isnt jesus god?) who is "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6

Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:21-24)

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. (1 Timothy 11:15)

Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:18-22)

Romans 1:32 (“God’s death penalty for those who do these things”), refers to Leviticus 20:13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

crumbs. that is an evening's work.

slaves, talked about elsewhere in this thread.

Crete. I dont think I can poss defend the people of Crete as they were 200o years ago. If that is what the bible says they were like, then they were like that at that time.

Matthew. deep. Did your parents discipline you? Were they good behaved when they did? Of course they were. They cared enough about you to discipline you.

John 15.6 Yes, that is the consequences of disobeying. Up to you.

The rest. If that is what God wants, that is what He gets. Who are you or I to disagree with HIm. We are merely dust.

phew. Didnt take anywhere near as long as I thought to get through that lot!