Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Who Wrote The Gospels?

940 replies

headinhands · 10/04/2014 08:53

"Matthew contains 606 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Markâ??s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke."

A good diagram here

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 10:03

love the sinner

^But stab them and their babies if I tell you too*

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 10:04

rabbit would you kill your own kids if god asked you to?

OP posts:
rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 10:06

Abraham was being tested. God did not want him to kill his son. It was a test.

[am beginning to get a deja view feeling with some of these questions, so may disappear again soon!]

The other examples are about not disobeying God or mocking Him.

Continual disobedience matters a lot.
You and I and everyone else cannot escape the consequences.
And from God's point of view, it trumps many other things. He is the Master. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not.
Who cares whether anyone likes it or not?
It is immaterial to what will happen. So better to buckle down.
Why does your opinion or my opinion matter? Because it doesnt as regards the outcome.

ShippingForecast · 19/04/2014 10:16

rabbitrisen - Do you feel that you're being 'watched and judged' all the time by god? That must be a lot of pressure to live with - does it make you happy?

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 10:36

9.59 We all have to make our choices
10.03 Christians job is to love people, no matter what they have done
10.04 I would have to be 100% sure that it was God talking, and God's will. Which it isnt going to be God's will.

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 10:42

Yes I do feel that I am being watched and judged all the time.
I think that we all are?

Actually, lately, I have come to think that I am maybe being too hard on myself in this respect.
That God is not harsh and wont overburden me.

It is an interesting question actually! Because it is something I have been thinking personally about lately. As I am rather busy in rl [DD getting married soon!]

I am content. I am never sure of christians are meant to be going around super happy all the time. I dont think that they are?

I am not sure if I am typical of christians in the answers I have just given? I dont know how others feel about this subject?

ShippingForecast · 19/04/2014 10:59

rabbitrisen - "I am never sure of christians are meant to be going around super happy all the time. I dont think that they are?"

I guess this depends very much on the person and their particular brand of Christianity. Personally I can't imagine that I would ever be happy if I genuinely believed that there was even a small chance I'd end up being eternally damned in hell. It must also be a significant emotional burden to feel that for religious reasons you need to point out to others that they must believe - otherwise they will end up in eternal damnation.

So I reckon you should be a bit easier on yourself by not buying into the scenarios above, but I don't believe for a minute you'll listen to me!

BackOnlyBriefly · 19/04/2014 11:08

Abraham was being tested. God did not want him to kill his son. It was a test.

Yes, and he passed and was good in god's eyes because he was willing to slaughter a child. God said "he is our kind of guy. We want more like him"

That's the example you are pledged to follow and if god ever asks you to kill a child you must be willing to do it too or you will fail and never sit by his side.

Sometimes people ask me why I feel religion is a bad thing. I need only point to people who think the Abraham story is an uplifting one.

As for disappearing. That discomfort you are feeling is caused by cognitive dissonance. It's very bad for you in the long term.

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 11:29

Shipping Smile. Thanks for the advice anyway!

Yes I do feel emotional burden to tell people about God. I wouldnt otherwise be on this part of mumsnet for starters!

And no, because of how the world is, and the hell part,I dont think it is possible for genuine christians to be happy at all times. Funerals in particular can be more difficult.

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 11:32

BOB.

But with the Abraham scenario. God did not want the son killed. He was seeing if Abraham would obey.

Obeying God is the essence to that situation , not the killing. Which may be you have not fully understood?

I dont properly understand your last paragraph.

HowardTJMoon · 19/04/2014 12:06

Obeying God is the essence to that situation , not the killing.

In your opinion. In my opinion it shows yet again that the Abrahamic god as described in the Bible is hideously cruel. Isaac was tied to an altar and his own father was just about to kill him. If this really happened, imagine what was going through Isaac's mind at that moment. He'd be immobile and his own father, a man who he loved and was supposed to be able to trust, was advancing on him with a knife with every intention of murder. How do you think that made Isaac feel? How betrayed and scared must he had been?

Yet, to you, Isaac's suffering was entirely irrelevant because he wasn't actually killed. Your god encouraged Abraham to terrorise his son but hey, it's fine, because your god wanted to make a point so the end justifies the means.

Just like the story of the Abrahamic god killing Egyptian kids - sure it was an atrocious and barbaric act of terrorism but Pharaoh eventually let the Israelites go so it's all good, right?

ShippingForecast · 19/04/2014 13:12

"And no, because of how the world is, and the hell part,I dont think it is possible for genuine christians to be happy at all times. Funerals in particular can be more difficult."

That's really very very sad that occasions such as funerals are made so much worse by believing that someone you love / care about has 'not been saved' because they didn't fit some sort of arbitrary criteria.

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 13:27

It is quite possible that Isaac thought it was some sort of game. Or Issac was distracted, or even knew that his dad wouldnt do it.
The bible doesnt say.

I have realised in life that we cannot second guess what another human is thinking. As very often, that guess is wrong.

rabbitrisen · 19/04/2014 13:55

The criteria is just believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, and say sorry for your sins.

That is very specific and quite easy to remember.

headinhands · 19/04/2014 13:59

easy to remember

What happens if you just don't believe though. In the same way you just don't believe in the other religions? Wouldn't god know you were pretending to believe?

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 14:07

cannot second guess

You hold a knife to a small child and guess what they think. Is it really hat hard?

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 14:12

say sorry for your sins

I've said sorry when I've hurt someone. Why do I need to say sorry to someone i haven't hurt?

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 14:22

cannot escape the consequences

Except you're saying they can. Remember the 13 year old murdered by their parent and the child goes to hell and that the parent finds god and dies a year later and goes to heaven. That child would feel pretty pissed off if it knew it was in hell and it's parent who killed him was in heaven.

OP posts:
thegreatestMadHairDayinhistory · 19/04/2014 14:47

The whole Abraham-Isaac thing though, it's another case of reading words and taking the face value (I know, I know, why did God not make it more obvious etc etc Grin ) - but we need to use the tools of biblical criticism.

For one, it's evident Isaac was not, actually, a 'small child', but at the least an older teenager and the most a grown man. Not someone to lie on his back and let dad kill him, possibly? The biblical narrative on this one is sketchy - in reality, would there not have been more dialogue between father and son? Abraham also says to the servant, very clearly that we will go and worship and we will return. Earlier on God had given the promise that through Isaac Abraham's family would go on forever, so what was Abraham to make of God's request? And what did Isaac know about it? We don't know any of these things, but we need to think about them, at least.

It's evident throughout the OT that God 'abhors' child sacrifice - it's one thing that very strong language is used about. So therefore, why is God doing this? Possibly to firstly test Abraham's faith in him, and then to throw into stark relief how child sacrifice is not to be entertained? That God wanted Abraham to have faith, but showed him through this act that child sacrifice would never, ever be something he would actually ask of someone?

Pondering, really. The main points are there, though, that Abraham trusted completely that God would not kill his child (and that Isaac went along with it, being of an age), and that elsewhere child sacrifice is roundly condemned.

headinhands · 19/04/2014 15:39

would never be something he would actually ask of someone

But he did. It's like saying I'm going to threaten to rape you just so you know how much I hate rape It's an utter flop of logic and I suspect you know that.

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 15:47

throw into stark relief how child sacrifice is not to be entertained

By coercing Abraham into thinking that was exactly what god wanted? See, if you want me to suspend my 21st century morals and do logical acrobatics to make this scenario the scenario of a loving and morally superior god then, in terms of intellectual honesty, there would no longer be anything stopping me justifying anything abhorrent on the surface. I'm ceasing to use my own morals and have no reason to find anything, any god does as repugnant. Confused

OP posts:
headinhands · 19/04/2014 16:33

madhair I'm not doubting you've done a shed load of research but there are many Christians, of which I used to be, who have never looked at these biblical stories using the same morals that they use everywhere else and appear to have little problem with the inherent contradiction that of god acting like a depraved psychopath.

It's a similar situation you have in the thread on this same board where a Christian is struggling to believe in god after the death of a young mum. Someone astutely pointed out the fact that even worse things than that are happening all day everyday and hasn't that cause her to stop and think. I think it's the same system at play here, that of 'it's what we're used to, no one else seems to have a problem'. And that's powerful, that herd mentality.

The first time someone generally hears about Abraham is in a sermon and is no doubt used to illustrate the power of faith and god's goodness. No one's likely to say over the tea and biscuits after that actually god was being a bit of a monster.

Maybe I'm wrong but this is how I explain it and how I could let myself believe that a morally superior being would behave that way.

OP posts:
BigDorrit · 19/04/2014 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

headinhands · 19/04/2014 17:05

Yes Dorrit and how come most Christians don't struggle with it wen without protracted study? I suspect it's because you're effectively working it backwards. You've already decided what the conclusion will be: that god's super fab even though it looks like he's spectacularly cruel.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 19/04/2014 17:32

Head how do you deal with the "worse things that happen all day, everyday"?