women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

"the wording of that Hadith does not state that covering more than this is not allowed"

It says everything except face & hands should be covered. If covering the face was indeed an integral part of Islam, he would not have said "except face".

"from my understanding and research it appears that particular Hadith is thought to date from the period before covering the face was ordained"

It dates from when Mohammad and Aisha were alive.

When do you think covering the face was "ordained"? Ordained by whom, since it is not in the Quran and therefore clearly not ordained by God.

The order for the wives of The Prophet to cover the face and the recommendation for other women in general to do so was some years after the first revelation. Before this and even prior to Islam women in that society wore hijab anyway but sometimes in ways that only covered the hair so a bit like a 'bandana' style. When the verse from Surah al Nur was revealed this was when some women felt this was a commandment to wear niqab in addition to the hijab they were already wearing. If it was unIslamic and/or cultural for them to wear it then why do we have ahadith such as the following?

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.

Surely if incorrect in this action The Prophet peace be upon Him would have told them not to wear it? The only occasion when women were told not to wear the niqab was during hajj or umrah but men on hajj and umrah have to wear two unsewn pieces of white cloth, you don't find anyone using that as proof that men have to wear that all the time as there are some instructions for hajj/umrah and being in a state of ihram that are clearly not meant for general life and are hajj/umrah specific. There is more evidence for niqab being a Sunnah and a lawful extension of 'ordinary' hijab than there is to the contrary and as Muslims we follow that which has most evidence, end of. Xx

Can I ask, if men are fully responsible for their own action and are commanded to lower the r eyes, why do women need to cover themselves?

Yes, as I said, slightly different rules applied to Mohammad's wives. Make of that what you will.

I have a feeling that he would be horrified if he were to travel forward in time and see so many women hidden away under black curtains, faceless and segregated, in the name of his religion.

Quran says that it is perfect, fully-detailed, complete, and all you need to know to be a Muslim. And in the Quran, you are told to cover your bosom with the cloth that covers your head. Not your face. Nowhere in the Quran is there any mention of covering your face.

So a *fundamentalist (= someone who follows the literal interpretation of her holy book) would wear something like this.

I don't know what you have to be to think you need to cover your face, because I don't know the word (if there is any) that means "someone who thinks she needs to do more than what is in her holy book".

• I get in trouble on occasion with people who don't know the meaning of the word "fundamentalist". It doesn't mean "extremist" and it isn't an insult. It means "someone who follows a strictly literal interpretation of their holy book". If you are inclined to take offence at the use of this word, look it up before you do so, please.

Cotedazur do you speak Arabic fluently? Are you even Muslim? With all due respect if the answer is no to one or other of these then I would suggest you're not as knowledgeable on this topic as you think you are. The word commonly interpreted as 'bosom' is an archaic Arabic word that is very hard to translate and various translations for the word have been given.

The most logical of these is that the word specifically applies to an open neckline of a dress and that women are to use their headcoverings pulled forward to cover this. Strangely the women at the time of The Prophet peace be upon Him interpreted this, a verse in a language they were fluent in, to mean they should make headcoverings from their existing garments and even furnishings and put them on in such a way that it covers the face and everything else. According to most historians that initial clothing used for veils was black, though later there are ahadith speaking of other colours worn red, white, green, yellow and striped fabrics.

The main reason that black has stood the test of time is that it's a practical colour, black garments stain far less easily than other colours and they show up damage, tears and repairs less. Also in many cultures black is seen as a modest, simple yet elegant colour. It's the same in the orthodox Jewish religion and Christian sects such as the Amish. Another thing is, if looked into historically FULL veiling, in ways you would consider 'extreme' not even showing the eyes was the norm in most Muslim cultures and countries.

The period in which women in Muslim countries were pressured to get rid of the niqab and even the hijab only began in about 1920. It isn't a sudden, new, extreme interpretation at all. In Saudi for example, they used to wear something more similar to the afghan burqa with a mesh for the eyes, so far more all-encompassing than the abayas with scarf and niqab showing the eyes that they tend to wear now. Most countries where they historically wore niqab women no longer do so, at all xx

The Qur'an is complete yes but in Islam there are two sources of evidence The Qur'an, and then the ahadith which tell us how the Quranic injunctions were interpreted by the earliest Muslims. There are also ahadith Qudsi, direct words of Allaah but quoted by Prophet Muhammed peace be upon Him and written down as Hadith. Great pains were taken to ensure that the Hadith (pl ahadith) had a complete and accurate chain of narration before they were written down. There are weak and fabricated Hadith but they are well known as such.

There is also a science of tafsir or commentary of The Qur'an this stems from the time of The Prophet Peace be Upon Him and the first couple of generations after him. Tafsir comes from a number of sources, number one is other more detailed verses of the Qur'an being used to explain ones that are seemingly less detailed and clear. There is also linguistic commentary of the Qur'an so in depth explanation of certain words and terms and the ahadith are also used to provide commentary to the Qur'an. Xx

I'm wondering whether anyone can answer my question- I'll repeat it for convenience- and amend the typos. "Can I ask, if men are fully responsible for their own action and are commanded to lower thier eyes, why do women need to cover themselves?"

With all due respect to your years as a Muslim, I dare say I know a bit what I am talking about. You know, having been born to a Muslim family in a Muslim country, and having suffered through decades of RE on Islam and all that.

"The word commonly interpreted as 'bosom' is an archaic Arabic word that is very hard to translate and various translations for the word have been given. "

It isn't that hard to translate, except if you are trying to find a pretext to put women into veils, I suppose. It is closely related to the word 'neck'. In no way does it mean 'face'.

Women wear them who's children go to the same playgroup as mine.
Some are stuck up tits. Some are lovely. Just like people in other clothes.

Martorana read the article I posted from the muhajabah site. It explains better than I could. There are several reasons to do with piety, developing greater Taqwa (translated as God consciousness, or awareness), and to try to overcome ones self in terms of desiring after worldly 'trappings', wealth, accumulating loads of worldly goods, and so on and so forth. I know some very pious ladies who have only one set of niqab and over garments not because they are too poor to afford any more but because they have managed to remove from themselves the desire to accumulate a vast 'Islamic wardrobe' and instead they spend the money on looking nice for themselves, their friends and their husband (if they have one, about 70% of niqabis I know are not married), charity donations and study materials to further their knowledge of the religion. I admire that. When it comes to attention from men, before wearing niqab I did used to get attention from men and no not Muslim men as most were respectful and lowered their gaze, but non-Muslim men particularly scottish and Irish men for some really weird reason. The hijab alone didn't make them realise I was a Muslim woman not interested in them. Such attention did make me feel uncomfortable not because I felt I was responsible for it or that I had caused it, but it just did. I've had a guy try and ask me out even in niqab, but it only happened the once xx

But how can you communicate properly with anyone whose face is covered? Whether by helmet, mask or burka?

I find any public covering of one's face sinister and divisive.

I genuinely worry about these women's vitamin d levels! Did you know that MS increased in Iran when women began to fully cover themselves?

We are creatures who need light and sun and for whom eye contact is one of the biggest means of communication.

Cotedazur why did the women at the time of the Prophet interpret this verse as recommending them to cover their faces then? Surely they would be better equipped than you or I in regards to how best to interpret this verse (and the one about jilbaab too?). Fact is you dislike the burqa or niqab and will ignore any evidence that remotely suggests it is anything other than a modern invention. Growing up in a Muslim country doesn't mean much as in several Muslim countries now the RE curriculum is geared towards a more secular brand of the faith. There are some Muslim countries where wearing of the niqab is, if not completely illegal made so impossible that women are put off wearing it xx

Well,nif anyone can convince me that there is no element of taking responsibility for men's behaviour in women covering themselves ever, and that no women is ever coerced in any way into covering, and no women is ever punished in any way for not covering, then I will change my views. But I honestly don't think anyone could. And if anyone could convince me that men are expected to take the admonition to modesty as seriously as women are - they obviously aren't, because Muslim men tend to wear ordinary western dress in this country. I have never, for example heard of a Muslim school boy unable to do PE or go swimming........

Oohdaddypig, vitamin D deficiency is widespread in the western world amongst everyone. It's hard to get enough vitamin D in the northern hemisphere, I have always taken high dose supplements before and after niqab. Most other niqabis I know are the same. I do know some Muslim women who veil whose doctors assumed that every illness they had was due to vitamin D deficiency, in only one case did the woman in question have a vitamin D deficiency and she had only recently started to cover at all and had been deficient before. Others their levels were tested, and they were either bang on average or above average. In Muslim countries homes are traditionally built to have a large, completely private inner courtyard where women are free to wear whatever they like without prying eyes. Sadly, just as in the west these days little thought is paid to any type of outdoor space when building new homes. As for it being a barrier to communication, I don't find it is. I find I go out of my way to be chatty to shop assistants and so on whereas before I was more aloof. I also get random people asking me questions about niqab and Islam in general xx

Crescentmoon yes there are numerous examples of traditional veiling amongst Muslims and also in some cases non-Muslims, like the story you mention and if you look into Albanian costume prior to communism the catholic women used to veil as well. As a clothing and costume enthusiast I find it fascinating.

Martorana I know many Muslim boys who were removed from swimming or PE, my boys are home educated but they only ever attend boys only swimming or physical activities. You just don't hear about Muslim families removing male children from such activities because it doesn't fit the 'Islam is oppressive to females' media narrative. Also Muslim women in the west tend to be more religious than men, three quarters of converts are women but in the general Muslim population there is more interest in learning and practicing the faith, in depth amongst women than men. Having said that the majority of women who wear hijab in the UK do so with western clothing and I have known a few niqabis who wear it with modest western dress such as long skirts and cardis and not any specific burqa-esque garment xx

"You just don't hear about Muslim families removing male children from such activities because it doesn't fit the 'Islam is oppressive to females' media narrative"

Ok- you are assuming that I am being informed only by the Daily Mail. Wh I have to say I find quite offensive, And you are being very selective in the points you are responding to. Hey ho. Bed time,

I am always amused by the sheer concern for the vitamin D levels in niqabis and hijabis. As mentioned already, most of the UK population is vitamin D deficient. So please put your fake concern aside and just be truthful .

it isn't just dark skin and covering skin that leads to rickets, it's also a diet which avoids dairy and other vitamin-D enriched foods containing fats.

I find the OP distasteful and totally geared toward a Western outlook.

Ranting at somebody because of their cultural and religious background. There is a word for that. I don't need to use it, but I can't be the only person to think it.

Sometimes I think the good folk of the West forget that other places in the world exist. These places are different and it is not always possible to apply black and white feminist principles in every situation.

martorana with all due respect it does sound as though you are getting your info from second and third-hand sources, just from the way your posts are written. However regardless of media involvement or not I think some people DO have a set perception of Muslim women in their head and anything they hear that is contrary to that will be selectively ignored. You have also been selective in the parts of my posts you have responded to or seemed to have read, you have made no mention for example regarding the women I have mentioned who are forced not to wear the niqab, when they wish to.

defuse couldn't have put it better myself. What is really worrying, and upsetting is that I know of at least two cases where children were born to Muslim families where the mother wore niqab and the child in question had an inborn chromosomal condition called DiGeorge syndrome. This condition causes the child to be born with zero stores of vitamin D and calcium leading to fits in the first few weeks of life, which should raise a red flag to health professionals. In the cases I know of, and I know the families personally, these fits were solely chalked down to the mothers wearing niqab and themselves being assumed to be extremely deficient in vitamin D, even though the children had dysmorphic features, couldn't talk by the age of three, and had various other health problems that were clearly not just due to low vitamin D levels. One friend whose child had this problem before he was properly diagnosed, was told by the HV she is a traitor and it's her fault her son is ill because she should have been sunbathing in her back garden in a bikini. Never mind this lady had four other children, who were all fine. It is only now when her little boy is 5-years-old that my friend and her husband's pushing for further investigation has paid off and genetic tests at GOSH have shown it to be diGeorge syndrome. Early intervention is so important and he has now missed out on therapy that could have really benefitted him if started as early as possible. It makes me so angry.

pigletjohn well I must really be buggered then because as well as being a niqabi, I am vegan as well. One of a growing band of Muslim vegans. I like to tell people I'm a niqabi vegan they don't know which 'lifestyle choice' to attack me with first hehe, and whether to suggest I am d deficient or lacking in b12. I am horribly allergic to dairy, not just cows' milk but goat and sheep milk too. Dairy if produced in the UK isn't a good source of vitamin D, levels are so negligible they usually aren't labelled, and in the US it only is because it's added in artificially by law. In the UK the law only covers dried and evaporated milks because of their previous incarnation as impromptu infant formula but hey that's a whole other topic xx

Brilliant programme on women's hour a whole ago, lots of people talking about them. It's not black and white and I think you should listen to it

Knowing more about fashion than I do about hadiths, I usually have to bring to these threads the information that women in the 12th century (CE) were wearing the same outfits across Europe and the Middle East. Variations existed mainly in the type of decoration & padding, but the configuration was the same. There was a rail, barbette, veil and fillet making up the head-dress. Our nuns still wear it. The style rampaged across Europe with the spread of Christianity having, of course, originated in the Middle East.

It's quite interesting to see scholars of Islam disputing the details of discussions about clothing in the time of its inception, without reference to the facts of contemporary fashion. Devout Jewish women covered their heads & faces entirely for about 300 years around the beginning of Christianity. The doctrine - mutating from Jewish to Christian to Muslim - gave out a great many clothing laws. They were broadly similar, differing mainly in the details about tassels, fringes, embroidery and the like.

When Muhammad said that to Asmaa, he was only telling her to wear what all adult women were wearing at that time. I would like to point out that society in those days was oppressive to women, who were considered chattels (albeit highly respected & honoured, blah blah) of men; female 'modesty' was mainly about clarifying ownership. Clothing rules were, therefore, based on fiercely patriarchal principles.

I find it odd that so many cling to 900-year-old rules stemming from those principles. It's even odder that wearers convince themselves they're doing it for their own freedom.

French painting, 12th century.

Cote, I love your posts on these threads. Thank you.