Does anyone else find the anti denominational school stance depressing?

[Plaza]

I recently read a thread where the majority seemed to agree that state schools should be secular and denominational schools done away with altogether.

I found this pretty depressing, no least as it would have been my personal view about a year ago... I have since moved my DC to a COE school and cannot praise it or the Christian ethics enough.. What do you think?

So really we need more schools, so that parents have a better choice, rather than doing away with denominational schools.

I don't understand faith schools.
I am an atheist but I would not want to send
My children to an atheist school if this exists.
I would want my children to mix with people
of all faiths. I think faith schools are unhealthy.

What depresses me, as an atheist, is that I don't have a choice. My local primary, in fact ALL of the local primaries are c of e, and my children are, bluntly, indoctrinated into a religion that I profoundly disagree with. How is that remotely fair? I can choose to withdraw them from services but that means that they would miss every assembly (they all
Include prayers), they have a daily prayer at the end of each day, they have prayers again at lunchtime. We have had many conversations with very confused children who are told one thing at home and one thing at school. I very firmly believe that state schooling should be secular and religion should be kept at home/church/wherever.

So we need more secular schools, so that people have a choice as to whether their DC are raised within a faith environment. I see this as a better option than doing away with faith schools.

Would you be so excited and keen if you lived in an area where the schools did not cater for your religion?

If you lived in an area where the choice was Jewish (you're not going to be able to go there), RC (you're not going to be able to go there) or community, how would you feel about that?

How would you feel as a non christian in an area where majority of schools were christian an admitted pupils on that basis?

I think that the admissions criteria of religious schools are divisive and wrong.

If it were down to me, practicing religion would not be a part of the school day.

And if you feel that strongly that you want it to be, you can set up your own schools like the Hasidic Jewish community and the Exclusive Brethren community in our area do.

I think you're missing the point a bit. The larger issue is not the ethos and morals of the school - it's as zoe described it ie that the selection process for state-funded non-secular schools (that all taxpayers contribute to) is blatantly discriminatory.

I'm completely fine with religion in schools, and attended two C of E schools myself and I agree there are benefits (the bible bashing in the second one convinced me I didn't believe in god but that's a separate thread) but I am NOT fine with the prospect of children being prevented from attending the closest state school because their parents don't share a religious affiliation with the school. It's appalling and quite frankly baffling to me that anyone would ever defend it.

We live in such a densely populated urban area that there is simply no room to build another school! And currently while the local school is oversubscribed, neither are there enough children to fill another whole school. It is simply not practicable for the state to fund denominational schools for all religions in each area, it would be absurd. Therefore the fair solution is to take religion out of the equation altogether.

TBH I would probably move to an area where I knew they would be able to get int a secular school, if I objected so strongly. My parents did that as they really didn't want their DC to attend a church school.

I would also be calling for more secular schools to be opened, rather than doing away with faith schools which cater to a large faith community in the area.

Do you not think that they are inherently divisive then, plaza? Is this based on the fact that you just like your local school, as you said you disagreed with it a year ago? So if your school did away with all the faith aspects, how would it actually change, apart from being open to everyone?

70% of the primary schools in my borough admit on religious criteria (the last time I checked).

It's not as simple as "oh well move".

Plus there are no state "secular" schools in the UK. They are all christian unless they have put in to have a different main religion eg Judaism.

From what I understand Catholic schools are heavily subsidised by the Church - hopefully someone will come along and correct me on this.

If you live in a densely populated place surely there is enough choice of schools? Or is it that the secular ones aren't as good?

If people have to move to find schools that they will be allowed to go to, you will end up with religious / athiest ghettos (even more so than happens currently).

That is not a good thing for society. Generally it is better to encourage communities to mix, and that seems to happen naturally over time. Reversing that trend artificially seems like a bad idea to me.

Problem is that often the schools aren't equally matched, for all kinds of reasons, maybe nothing to do with faith. When the better performing school can exclude people on the basis of faith, that smacks of unfairness.

If the worst performing school can exclude people on basis of faith, nobody much cares because it's not a popular school, anyway.

So attention is drawn to the situations when the better performing school happens to be the faith-based one. And that's what feels unfair.

There are two levels of state funding for religious schools. One level means that they are allowed to have 100% admissions on religious criteria (assuming over-subscription). The other which means more funding from the state means they have to have a certain % of "community" places and the rest can be on religious grounds.

Maybe do some research if you want to learn more.

Plus, why the hell should we move away from an area we've been in for years, with strong family ties? Why doesn't the ONLY local school instead cater for everyone who lives here, because, oh I don't know, we all pay for the damn thing?!!!
Grrrr, this is one topic guaranteed to get my back up!

My DC don't go to our local school, the two closest are secular. The COE school they now attend is about 20 mins drive away. I moved them as I wanted a more faith based education.

We have a Catholic school very nearby which a lot of parents lied to get into, meaning that genuine Catholics couldn't get their children a place. Most of those who lied have now left due to not liking the religious aspect.

"If you live in a densely populated place surely there is enough choice of schools? Or is it that the secular ones aren't as good?"

In my borough the last time I checked, 70% of primary schools admitted on religious criteria.

Different areas have different profiles. Living here, the fact that so many schools admit on religious criteria makes things very difficult for everyone. It would be much better if they were not allowed to select on religious criteria. This would also be better from a community cohesion POV. And would mean more children could walk to school and so on.

So people want local schools their children can get into, I completely agree that's a fair call! I don't however think this should mean the secularisation of faith schools. Is there any research into the demand for faith education within communities?

That's a really high percent. What are the other 30% of schools like?

The Jewish community often like Jewish schools, and so have state Jewish schools.
Same as the RC community often like RC schools, and so have RC schools.

Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Groups like the Hasidic Jewish community and the Exclusive Brethren community have their own schools. Should they be state funded? If not, why not?

They are community schools

We have CofE, RC, Jewish and now a Hindu state school in our borough. It is a very diverse area

I guess it depends on how much demand there is within a community.

What are the secular schools like?

Well there certainly is demand! Hence they run their own schools. If there is enough demand from a certain religious group, would you afford state funding to them on the same basis as CofE etc?

A lot of our local schools are oversubscribed, and that's mainly the faith schools (Catholic & COE), the secular schools often have places. Is that unusual?