God's influence

[orangatan]

Have nc for this but only becuase I am busy as it were on other threads.

I am having trouble getting my head around something.

I am a committed christian.

When things go wrong, and I am really just talking about very minor things that other people have done to you, how much of that has been orchestrated by God?
Any of it? None of it? Somewhere in between?

Thanks

capsium Hume argues that you can know nothing. That anything you think you know or experienced might be illusion.

Religious people use this to say that we can't know that DVD players work as the theories predict, we can't know that a dropped apple hits the floor and we can't know that the earth is very old even though we have evidence, but of course we can still know that god exists.

If you really took him seriously you would abandon religion.

So yes a rolling eye emoticon for me and hettie :)

That is because, for Christian believers, there is knowledge by Faith, spiritual knowledge. People sometimes call it a 'word of knowledge'. Part of Christian belief, includes beliefs about knowledge. Knowledge being discerned spiritually. Humans being more than the sum of their parts....

(o00) (o00)
..

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^Your eyes rolling? Back

Aw the spacing messed up. Your face seems to have rolled too.

I just do not see why people get so high and mighty about human knowledge.

Yes there is research but often the people going on about this being knowledge and that being belief have not read the original research anyway (and do not know the limitations / assumptions actually included within the original studies). We are talking here about beliefs about research. I have come across this too many times to not question it. Very frustrating if you have bothered to read the research.

Beliefs are also incredibly powerful. They affect what we are prepared to observe, look for and acknowledge.

^included as in clearly stated.

Good try on the rolling eyes :)

Even if there were a way to get knowledge by Faith that actually worked, you'd have to use your normal human reasoning to determine that it was working and Hume would say that wasn't good enough. So you might be getting accurate information, but couldn't be sure that it was.

It's a bit like saying the Pope can't lie when speaking ex cathedra. That may be, but how do we know this? Because he said so.. err hang on.

As for 'beliefs about research' there is an answer to that. I certainly wasn't there at every experiment and couldn't have understood them all anyway.

So firstly I can not be 100% sure about anything. I agree with Hume on this (he didn't advocate ignoring all knowledge. Just to keep that doubt in mind)

Every 'fact' in my life is actually a probability. Not an exact one, but an estimate.

My favourite example is that I don't know New York exists. But in order for it not to exist there'd have to be such an elaborate conspiracy to trick me that it boggles the mind.

It wouldn't just mean every map was faked for my benefit, but every person on TV or in books who casually mentioned New York would have to be in on it. On a summers day many years ago I sat in Hyde Park by the Serpentine and listened to a tourist with an american accent speak of New York. If that was staged for my benefit then I give up
:)

For the facts about say Newton's theories to be false would require the same kind of immense and internally consistent conspiracy.

This is not comparable to religion since religion is not internally consistent. Even within the same denomination and the same village church each believer has their own version and each version contradicts itself on closer examination.

Back
Funnily enough I do not ignore all research but really do like to keep, what I term healthy doubt.

The living by Faith is valuable in terms if intuition, as your read the Bible it is internalised and works to change you from the inside out, your subconscious if you like. You adopt a new life perspective. Its the way literature or anything cultural works. Beliefs are internalised. I have found my 'instincts' have changed about things.

I get 'warning bells' now on different things and am more confident and relaxed about things I would not have been confident about. In my experience of it, my Faith has really been advantageous and enriching.

The supposed 'inconsistencies' do start to make sense, it is like not everything is black and white but there is range to a lot of things, the right action for the right circumstance.

Although for me the New Testament is really important, it is here we get the message of Grace. I'm not sure where I would be without this.

^ of intuition. Typo

Too be honest it is all a really big adventure. Which I am enjoying...

Me too, capsium. Life is never dull.

we get the message of Grace. I'm not sure where I would be without this.

probably pretty much where you are now. Visiting the GP when you're sick, plugging electrical items into the wall before turning them on, looking both ways before you cross the road, looking your house at night, taking out insurance and so on. You tell me one scenario where your faith clearly gives you an advantage over someone without?

I won't, because it would offend you head. You'd be outraged that I thought my Faith offers me any advantages. You'll just have to take my word for it, I'm happier.

Seems there is no advantage headinhands, except a psychological crutch.

atthestroke

Physical as well a psychological though, they are very closely linked IMO.

physically in what way?

Many IMO. But I don't think it is wise to divulge. This is an area which causes offense, non believers do not link to think believers can claim any advantages for their belief, generally IME.

How do you think your spirituality benefits you atthestroke?

Probably not wise to divulge.

Ah well, we agree on something . Beliefs are certainly controversial.

You mistake me for a religious adherant - I don't "believe" as you mean it. I am simply aware of my surroundings, which does not include imaginary people.

Shucks I thought I was about to be challenged. Maybe god would like you to witness about the definite advantages or your faith? When you back away from doing so it's as if you've already concluded it wouldn't hold any water.

I'm a big girl, I can cope with being outraged and offended so don't you be worrying about me.

And besides, if you sick to facts, we should be able to test it.