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Original poster

Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

902 replies

Woolmark · 20/11/2013 19:57

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

OP posts:

headinhands · 24/11/2013 14:53

If Jesus is fair and is able to judge people just by their hearts instead of wether they've believed he was real and died for them, then wouldn't it make sense to do it all that way seeing as it's possible to get to heaven without being a Christian? That doesn't even take into account the fact that some people are bad because of a bad upbringing or take psychopaths for example. So potentially a psychopath who wasn't a Christian wouldn't have a chance. That doesn't seem fair.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 14:56

And if you're going to go down the universalism route of saying 'well maybe all faiths lead to god' why oh why would he not tell them that? Why would he say the opposite in the books?

capsium · 24/11/2013 15:01

Back
*Capsium yeah I see that happens. What I'd like to understand is how people with faith reconcile that with other people of faith having a different and specific belief.

Short answer is, practically speaking, I choose not think about it. Part of believing involves, well, belief. You dismiss what you think as being untrue. Metaphorically shrug your shoulders.

I pursue my belief by praying and meditating on the Bible and my understanding develops. Sometimes I find I have misunderstood some things.

However ultimately I have decided to believe the Bible, what I don't understand I do not worry about and just wait until my understanding has developed.

capsium · 24/11/2013 15:02

head don't know. I'm not a universalist.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:03

What happens if you've got the wrong god though caps? I mean, they are just as utterly convinced to their bones that they're right and you're wrong.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:06

That's quite unusual around these parts caps. Most Christians on here assert that all religions will lead to god.

madhairday · 24/11/2013 15:07

That's a good point hih and why universalism doesn't work for me...it's just too.... general somehow - like you say, you could just pick any faith or none and it wouldn't matter. What would be the point of faith?

For me my faith is all consuming and I believe what it says, therefore I cannot get around the fact that it says that God longs for reconciliation, but not all will be reconciled. It would be all nice and fluffy to say that God will just gather up everyone anyway, but that doesn't seem how it works - for one thing, it would be an arrogant and forceful God who 'gathered up' those who didn't want anything to do with God.

However, I also believe God is a fair and just God, and will indeed judge by people's hearts towards God, which may not manifest as 'faith' whether christian or otherwise. I still believe that having faith in God through Jesus is the very best way in which to be fully human, but that is my belief, and not my right in which to say everyone else is wrong. Where it crosses over, perhaps, is my desire for others to know the kind of utter freedom and joy this can bring. But in that I have no right to force this on anyone or deride anyone else's belief or lack of in the name of such a desire.

capsium · 24/11/2013 15:08

head well if I'm wrong I'll find out but you've got to be in it to win it.

Anyway I prefer living as I do now to as I lived before I was as committed to Christianity.

madhairday · 24/11/2013 15:11

I've partly got round that problem Headinhands by looking at other religions in a fair amount of depth, comparing them and speaking with friends of other faiths. I find all this very interesting but in it all have never found anything close to what I have found in knowing God through Jesus. I don't think it is necessarily important to do this but I think it is good to be educated and aware of what others believe, and be able to articulate what it is that makes you believe what you do (or don't).

Golddigger · 24/11/2013 15:13

I meant God as in Jesus, bible and all that.
So it wouldnt be enough to have evidence for you, would it head.

That is the thing about evidence op. It wouldnt actually be enough for most people, even though they think that it would.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:14

But mad there will be many fine Muslims that will say the exact same as you have 'yeah I looked into the other religions but they just lack the depth of awe that I found in Islam etc etc etc'

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:18

'You've got to be in it to win I"

Well I'm probably in the best position in that case. If Allah is waiting for you on the other side he's going to mighty unimpressed that you spent your time fawning over a false god. I won't be guilty of that there's about 2000 recognised religions. That's potentially 1999 furious gods you might have to deal with.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:20

Wouldn't it be foolish though to assume which god it was? Wouldn't you want to get the right god? Why would god expect you to take a chance knowing that you might opt for the wrong god because he wasn't clear enough?

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:24

I'd love some evidence. But it would have to be good. Imagine I told you I received a letter from Johnny Depp and he says he loves you madly and wants to marry you. You'd just think 'yeah, seems legit'. You wouldn't want some evidence?

Golddigger · 24/11/2013 15:25

Right. It is the real deal.
Is that enough for you?

DioneTheDiabolist · 24/11/2013 15:29

Or maybe there is one god with many names.
Or there are loads of them and they all know eachother.

For me (I had a Paul moment), my faith came with loads of questions and a desire to find the answers. It has been difficult but I have learnt to live with doubt because of it.

capsium · 24/11/2013 15:29

My choice head and yours.

I wouldn't be so sure, I have heard the term 'infidels' before, I don't think it is exclusive to Christians.

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/11/2013 15:37

capsium if that works for you that's fine. Though millions of people are absolutely sure that they are right and they know that because the creator of the universe told them so. You may well be right, but then they are going to be really disappointed.

madhairday I'm not surprised that you'd reject universalism. It's the worst kind of political correctness and makes no sense at all. Anyone with 5 minutes to spare should be able to work out that if god wants them to be loving and kind then he's not going to be happy about some religion which advocates the opposite - or vice versa.

I understand why people go for it though. People want to keep their beliefs but they can see that on the face of it it's horrible to suggest that only people in their club will get to heaven. So they look for ways round it.

Trouble is there is a basic flaw that can't be worked around. If you believe that it doesn't matter what you believe then the whole exercise becomes pointless as you said.

If it does matter then some disadvantage must apply to those who didn't pick the right one.

I've been told by some that if you get to heaven and never picked the right belief you'd have it explained to you there and get to choose then. In which case that's a lot easier option isn't it. No effort to believe in god if an angel is introducing you to him.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:40

Is what enough for me gold?

Golddigger · 24/11/2013 15:44

headinhands!

Is the real deal evidence enough for you to believe and one day worship again.

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:47

Maybe you should worship all 2000 gods, you know, cover all your bases :) by my calculations if you worship 5.5 different gods a week you'll have got through all of them by the end of the year and then just start again, and pray, erm, to all of them that you don't snuff it before the year is out in case you don't get to worship the real one until, like the 3 weeks before the end of the year?

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:48

Sorry what do you mean by real deal?

Golddigger · 24/11/2013 15:49

Ah ha. Evidence is really just an excuse for you.
I think you already realise this?

Not going to play the word games btw.

capsium · 24/11/2013 15:50

head You should know better. You can't do that, it is idolatry. (Or harlotry as my spell check corrected it to )

headinhands · 24/11/2013 15:51

The fact is there is just as much evidence for all of those 2000 gods. How can the real god expect you to pick the right one when he just looks as man made as the rest of them? If god is real and fair then he couldn't send anyone to hell just because they either picked the wrong god or decided that they were all false down to no proof. And that's even without getting into the problem of suffering.

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