Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

[Woolmark]

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

So interesting to hear a bit of your story, headinhands. Do you feel that the branch of christianity you were involved in was a branch which never allowed for any critical thinking? I know they exist but have thankfully not been involved in such myself, but I imagine it must be a relief to come out of a system where your own thought faculties have been squashed and the mantra has been 'just believe.' The cognitive dissonance involved must be painful sometimes.

As for the question about God's unconditional love leading to there being no point in believing, I guess it's like if our children decide to turn away from us. Despite us still loving them, they are not going to come back into relationship with us unless they themselves choose. Belief is a bit like this, a choice on our part to be back in relationship. And for me, what that relationship brings is freedom and hope emotionally, spiritually and actually intellectually as well.

I wouldn't ever set up a system where my children would be in any way physically tortured for not wanting to know me. Especially when it wasn't obvious I even existed. That would be doubly mean. I know people say 'god didn't want it that way'. Who made hell? When did they make it?

Which children are you talking about head?

All actions have consequences. Even if a wrong action does not hurt ourself, it could hurt somebody else.

With your own children you can manage the consequences, to some extent, however the goal is to teach them ultimately to make the right decision.

You cannot have Free Will without consequences. In Heaven we are at one with God. If you are against God or do not believe in Him, how can you be at one with Him?

Being apart from Him is Hell.

Are you asking for a world or system where you can do whatever you like, freely, without any detrimental consequences head? You would have to be perfect in order not to create havoc.

We can be free, in Christ, that is if we choose Him, the consequences are good ones.

Anyone's children, mine or anyone else's.

What's hell then?

Sorry, I still dont understand. No matter. Perhaps it is just me.

How can not believing in him be the same as being against him? You wouldn't say you were against Zeus would you?

For example, someone on the other side of the world who doesn't know you exist, how can you say they are against you? It's illogical.

Still havent a clue. Time for me to bow out for now I think.

HeadinHands are you thinking that in Christian doctrine
a) hell is a place of eternal physical torment
b) everyone who does not believe in God goes to hell ?
If so, you are wrong on both counts. Most theologians now teach that hell is being eternally cut off from God, and since God is all that is good, it is being eternally cut off from all that is good. That's not the same as being physically tortured. And it is not at all clear that simply not believing in God would mean that you are condemned to hell. It is one of those topics about which there is a very wide range of theological opinion, and it isn't cut and dried that the "heathen" are condemned to hell -- many (I am one of them) think that whenever someone feeds the hungry, or cares for the sick, they are following Jesus even when they do not know it, and when people follow the truth, and love one another, and they are walking in God's way even though they do not think they are.

head If someone deliberately closes their heart and mind even to the possibility of your existence, they are against you. It is the ultimate dismissal.

Because God knows everything including everything about us, He knows whether we have deliberately closed our heart and minds to Him and whether we will continue to do so for eternity.

Personally, I view everybody with hope. I do not know whether somebody has an eternally closed heart and mind. If they did, I don't know how long they could survive in this state. All I see is potential.

As far as Zeus goes, I would say he existed in the spiritual sense to those who believed in him.

niminy I partially understand your b) in that Jesus' message could transcend language, religion and everything really. However this is a really big concept to get my head around and difficult to put in words.

In John 18.37 Jesus says 'Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice'. We may not think we are serving Jesus when we serve each other, we may not even believe there is a Jesus to be served. But nevertheless, every time we serve each other we are still serving Jesus, knowingly or not. When we live truly and faithfully even if we do not profess that Jesus is the truth and have faith in him we belong to him.

I'm from a part of the church where critical thinking is very definitely encouraged and with part of my first degree in philosophy I've never found it a problem to combine faith and science and philosophy and theology. I do wonder if people who are talking about critical thinking are using this as a code word for leaving a childhood faith behind and entering into the questioning stage of faith which according to the stages of faith theorists hits most people of faith whether that is Christian, atheist, Jewish or a.n.other at late teens or early twenties.

Agree with greenheart very much on this. Faith would be profoundly unsatisfying to me unless it encouraged critical thinking. My academic work has included a lot of history of science and I'm married to someone who studies philosophy of science to doctoral level. I couldn't profess a faith I didn't think was intellectually satisfying, and which didn't encourage me to question.

niminy. Cant agree with all of your post there.
And saying the next bit extremely carefully. I often dont agree with what theologians say.
To me hell is a physical place, now and will be for eternity. I dont think that the ordinary man needs interpretation of the bible from theologians. As long as they can read or someone trusted can read the bible to them, they are free to make up their own minds.

"And it is not at all clear that simply not believing in God would mean that you are condemned to hell".
Would have to think about that. I think that you have to go through Jesus, so it is unlikely that non Christians have done that.

There is stuff about goats and sheep. I will have to take a closer look.

I think I do question.

However at the same time I recognise my own fallibility and the fallibility of the human race in general.

So I would question, science and philosophy and my interpretation of the Bible continually. This is how you grow in Christ, understanding is continually being refined, developed and in this way deepens.

Some things that people in the Scientific arena would argue or propose, I am against. Such as there is no such thing as Free Will. However in saying that I can see how somebody could become a 'Slave to Sin', so it is not an entirely straightforward concept.

In my experience my Faith has given me an added fascination and curiosity concerning the stuff of life.

Have you deliberately closed your heart to the existence of Zeus? No you just don't have any evidence for him. I used to think I had evidence for the biblical god because I thought I could feel him and so on. I realised it was me.

It seems difficult for believers to acknowledge that non-believers just don't think he exists rather then thinking he does but choosing to ignore the evidence. Do you ignore evidence for Allah?

I most certainly know a lot of non believers who dont think that he exists.
I, unlike a lot of Christians I know, am somewhat surrounded by non believers who dont think that He exists.

For me, if you do things in the bible they come true. That is a small part of my belief. The proverbs in particular are especially eye opening as far as I am concerned.

head I believe there to be one God.

Zeus, I said would only exist, in the spiritual sense, for those that believed in him. For me Zeus is not God because I only believe in God as described in the Bible, who is nothing like Zeus.

I think that God's message can also being diluted without the Bible or knowledge of Christ. So belief could be compromised.

However the idea of Christ transcending language and religion is interesting, but mind boggling. The good for me, the Truth would have to be the same as Christ's Truth for it to come from God.

Hell as everlasting torture or Hell as being eternally cut off from all that is good, either way this premise of Hell simply isn't humane.
Why would a powerful God who loves me unconditionally subject me to this? Either the God isn't that powerful or it ain't unconditional love

You would expect a book called proverbs to contain some sort of wisdom would you not? I've got a book in the airing cupboard next to the toilet called 'Proverbs from around the World'. Even that's got some great stuff in it. Nowt divine about it though, just a lot of common sense.

But why have you chosen to believe the bible over other religious texts or at all?

You have no more reason to believe the bible than you do in Zeus. There is just as much evidence.