Islam - What do you think?

[ChaCha]

Hello everybody,

I've been posting on MN for years and have met some lovely people on here. I am a practising Muslim, have been for around 6 years and chose this way of life for myself after much soul searching.
I recently met up with some ladies from my PN group here and not an eyelid was batted about my headscarf or the obvious fact that I am a Muslim. We have been chatting online for a year and a half and it has never been an issue.
It shows me that we can live in a tolerant society and that our own beliefs do not need to be forced upon others. I have found the inner peace that I was looking for for so long and this has prompted meto ask the following:

1. What makes you happy/content in life? What/Who do you turn to when you've had a really bad day? Do you often think about death and how does it effect your day to day life?

2. What comes into mind when you see a woman wearing a headscarf and how do you view Islam?

My thoughts for the day. Thank you. Off to change nappy x

Not sure anyone has dictated how anyone should dress here (Might have, not read whole thread....)

Meowmix, dunno why black is so popular, but I've been given a turquoise hijaab and abaya set, so they do come in different colours.
I tend to wear a black abaya (a long over coat type of robe), and my hijaab (headscarf) if usually whatever colour my outfit is underneath, get loads of compliments at busstops I do from sweet old dears.....

fuzzy - I think most people are agreeing that it's not up to them to say what another person wears - whatever their own views on any of the reasons.
Women who don't cover their heads by definition don't think 'oh, what a fantastic idea, I'd love to do that'...and will have their own reasons for not doing so. Doesn't mean they have criticisms or wish to nterfere with women who make a choice to do so.

gotta say fuzzy that I saw some gorgeous abayas while out in Doha and felt quite cross that I was in dullard khaki trousers and white t-shirt! even tho effectively the women were all dressed alike you can really see differences and stylistic thingys.

(am having an in love with qatar moment, bet it passes in heat of august)

I know Blu, I used the wrong.
I just find it really offensive having to justify my dress (is that better?). nothing about men not looking or looking I was chatted up by a guy I'd put in his early twenties last month in tescos, think he was slightly insane as I had both dd's in tow... so a man who is very determined will not be put off by a headscarf or veil or chastity belt.....
I observe the hijaab because I believe that I am asked to do so by God. The end.

Meow are you in qatar right now?? I found the heat unbearable in Dubai at this time of year, and my husband is unable to get me to go to anywhere middle eastern until after September... I seriously cannot tolerate the heat. I faint in English hot weather

no right now I'm in London, but am moving out on Aug 4th (I know its the definition of insanity) and was out there last week, which was fine thanks to extremely efficient aircon all round. However Aug is going to be hell, apptly the humidity is a killer.

And I'm scottish. so you know.... I'm going be in pain...

Don't know if this has ben said but because of the French thing. (also don't know quite how accurate this si but it was delivered to us in a lecture so I presume it is?)

The problem / bonus with french policy is that they see people only as french and don't (is it illegal? think it is) collate statistics on religion, ethnic origin etc. Whilst this is positive in some ways- the notion of everybody as peolpe is both beautiful and admirable- it also has the effect of making it hard for culturally representative groups to obtain funding, and for provision to be made.

This view also extends to the stae / religion in schools debate, with the French believing that you are French forst and foremost, but of course this view isn't prevalent in ohter societies / cultures- a Muslim is a Muslim forst and foremost, likewise a Jewish peson.

So whilst I am sure the French problems are far more complex than that, it does indicate how theoretically non- racist policies can backfire.

1. What makes you happy/content in life? What/Who do you turn to when you've had a really bad day? Do you often think about death and how does it effect your day to day life?

My kids make me happy and content most of the time, A sunny day, a tidy house, enough money.
I turn to my dp/or friends when i've had a bad day or MN.
I don't think about death as often as I used to. I lost both parents young so it probably crosses my mind more than most, I try not to think about it as the thought of leaving my children worries me sick.

2. What comes into mind when you see a woman wearing a headscarf and how do you view Islam?

When I see a woman wearing a headscarf I always think of a muslim friend in my class at school and wonder what she is doing now.

I don't really know enough about Islamic beliefs to comment on them.

I do worry about religious fundamentalists though, in all religions.

fuzzy, Could you explain to me what all the various things you wear are, and why you wear them.

I am sorry I get really confused as to what is the full covering (head to toe and face) is it called something different than the headscarf/long robe option? Do different people wear different things dependant on the 'strictness' of their beliefs.

Also is it purely a modesty thing, or is it as someone suggests to prevent men 'throwing' themselves at you? Because I think that is the issue here in some ways. I do think that a lot of people THINK that if a woman wears a headscarf (or more) then they are being forced to do so, or oppressed in some way. Is is a prerequisite of Islam?

I am sorry as I don't like that thought that people see it as oppressive, I am sure it is not, but I don't understand why you have to wear it.

fuzzywuzzy - I can appreciate that. I imagine it must be an exhausting aspect of being a minority of any kind. Explaining things is wearing, justifying more so.

peachy not entirely true, I am British and Jewish, please don't confuse country of origin and religion. Judaism (for me) is my religion, not my race IYKWIM

I think a lot of confusion is made over this issue and that is why some people suggest that they are Muslim or Jewish first, as if that were a race. It suggests that you can only be BORN into it, rather than chose to follow.

Fuzzy please don't think you have to jusify yourself, I know you chose to wear whatever you want. It is simply a straight explaination for me to discuss with my kids or otherts when I hear prejudice and ignorence about the veil.

oops I missed your post re tescos!

Crunchie the face veil is called the niqaab, the long robe is the abaya/jilbab (depending on the style), and the headscarf is the hijaab.

Sorry, just the lady at the Reform Synagogue said she was Jewish and that meant she would be Jewish wherever she was, and with the history of Judaism they were prepared to pack up and go whenever required.

I now Judaism co-exists within the rules of the country of diomicile, maybe I misunderstood the presentation she gave ? Not confusing religion with country of Origin, but as I said maybe I misunderstood her point. Didn't mean to offend though, and I did put a disvclaimer in!

peachy, ah there lies the problem tbh. A common jewish saying is that if you put 4 rabbis in a room, there would be 5 different veiws on a subject!! Basically everyone has different views on this. Some Jews and Muslims feel that 'to them' relgion is a race. Hence the comments made at your reform synagogue. However to me they are different.

But hey I've been called a self hating jew here on MN becuase I don't agree with teh state of Israel AND that was by a non-jew So who am I to say what others think. I was making the point that that can be where the issue lies sometimes as IMHO if people believe they are jew/muslim/christian first, then they will never want to assimilate and will never respect the laws of the country (hence some calls for Muslims to use some aspects of teh stricter laws in this country, which IMHO shoudl NEVER to allowed, but tahts a new thread!!)

The thigs that make me happy are usually small things e.g. having a happy chat with the bus driver or the lady in the greengrocers. I often turn to ds (age 5) if I have had a bad day. Or a good friend. Not dh as he will usually have managed to have had a worse day than mine!

If I see a woman wearing a headscarf, I just think "Oh, that lady is a Muslim." I didn't know much about Islam until recently, but ds's best friend at school is from a Muslim family, and I have got to know his parents quite well. They are really nice people, and have told me quite a bit about their religion, especially his Dad. He told me that the reason the women cover themselves up, is because men tend to see women sexually, and notice their physical appearance far more than women notice men. He said if women cover up, then men will see them as a person, and not just look at them for their physical attractions, and this is why God asks women to cover themselves. Incidentally, the friends Mum doesn't wear a headscarf in Britain, although she would in her native country, as everyone does over there. She always dresses modestly, though (but in Western clothes).

I think it is great that my son has been able to learn about different cultures (there are also two children from Hindu families in his class) and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

But then I would be jewish wherever I was, I would also be British too!!!

Fair enough, mind you this lady didn't agree with Israel either LOL! (and the things she had to say about hassidic jews! )

Seriously thanks for the opinion, I fully admit to being academic in my knowledge and the more real life info / experience I can agther the better as far as I am concerned, when I graduate I want to know the reality as much as the theory.

Peachy, I do admire the French system. If you come into this country, like us, then yes you have to learn to be French. We are not asked on any forms what our ethnic background is or any of that, the only clue as to our origin is in our English surname. I prefer that as I personally find those forms that ask a million and one questions about your skin colour, religion and ethnic origins intrusive. No matter what it is I am applying for, why should my religion, the colour of my skin or my ethnic origin have any bearing on it? The French system ensures that there is no discrimination. Of course it isn't foolproof.

As for funding for ethnic minorities over here, well no, there isn't much of it. But then you should see how bloody hard it is to get any kind of funding at all, even if you are a born Frenchperson! There aren't many religious schools at all, this is a catholic country and so most private schools are catholic. State schools are not religious and there are one or two Jewish and Muslim only schools that I have found, in Paris.

I do believe that education should be separate from religion and whilst the state have an obligation to teach children, they are under no such obligation to provide them with religious teaching. This, I believe, should be done at home under the guidance of the family.

There are certain parts of catholicism that I agree with and bits I don't. I wouldn't want a catholic school filling my childrens heads with things I do not personally believe in.

But I'm waffling now. If the headscarf for children is not compulsory as fuzzy has said, then I don't understand the big hooha if they are asked not to wear them at school? I do think this is a case of the parents dictating to the children and setting their children up to stand out, which I think is wrong.

I am now glad that I started this thread. There have been some really interesting posts, I have just spent the last 15 minutes catching up.

I have worn the niqab (face covering) on several occassions, usually when in the Middle East, at a certain gathering or something similar (like a busy Eastern Souk). I am not against it by any means but would not wear it myself. Recently my MIL and I (She a Welsh practising Christian) were in a shopping centre when she spotted a woman clad in black from head to toe wearing the niqab. She grabbed onto my arm and said 'Oh ChaCha, I don't like that, that's frightening, why do they do that?' Her reaction was genuine and I explained why some women choose to cover their face and why I've done it before. For what it's worth, when I lived in the Middle East i wore it to go to a gathering of some sort and my father's family were horrified (they are born Muslims, my DM and DH are converts), they could not understand why I was wearing it and told me to take it off! I don't agree with the wearing of niqab in this country. Many reasons.

I enjoyed reading about what makes you happy. Nice to read that most women/mothers have a lot in common regardless of religion/race/etc. Contentment, quiet time, kids, tidy house etc. It's not a lot to ask for is it?

I asked about death because when I feel that I've lost the plot I remember what this life is all about and it helps me get things into perspective. There's a particular book that I like to read when I need a spiritual lift.

My friends DDs aged 3, 5 and 7 all like to 'dress up' in their little headscarves. I used to dress up in high heels and wear make up, copying my mum, they are only doing the same. In some cases the parents do want their kids to wear it young, to get used to it etc. but that's no different than the parents who allow their young ones to dress like tarts.

I am also quite ignorant to other religions. Someone asked about Catholicism - enlighten me, I don't know much. I grew up without religion, my mum was a protestant, now a Muslim and my dad was a born muslim but has only started practising recently. My inlaws are Christian and Catholic. And there is a song they sing about this, but i can't remember it. It's Irish.

Hope Mx you enjoy the Gulf. I've only ever been to the Emirates and Cairo but love them both especially Dubai.

It's a pleasure to read your post, ChaCha. You sound like a very intelligent and thoughtful woman. If you don't mind my asking, why did you choose to wear the niqab on the occasions you refer to? And why were your father's family horrified? I am genuinely interested.

Awwww...Hi Greensleeves

I'm going to have to make this as quick as I can.

Where I've worn the niqab:

1. A very busy souk (market) where most of the vendors are men of a particular kind. I am white btw, take after my mother and often stand out like a sore thumb even in hijab. Is easier to wear a niqab and go about my business hassle-free. 2. Have worn it when visiting an Islamic scholar's hometown and family house. 3. Have worn it when i've been wearing full make-up (really full make up) and have needed to go out in public to get to the venue (usually wedding/party etc.) I'm sure there were are a few more but HTH.

On the family front, I think they see the niqab is being associated with extremists and a hardcore line of Islam. I remember trying to hail a taxi on occassion 3 (see above) and they all shot straight past me... It was a real eye opener.

1. Being with my family makes me happy. Particularly doing new things, explorign new places.

2. The only thing that really comes into my head is that she is likely to be a muslim. I don't like seeing children in them, as part of me always wonder if they chose to wear it, or if they really understand why they are wearing it. I don't think that adult woman are oppressed when I see them in any clothing, seems a big assumption to make on no good grounds.

I don't like the whole niqab much. I'm half deaf and depend a lot on lipreading and other visual clues. Talkign to somebody when I can't see their face is very hard work for me. It also makes me curious, I remember when the dts were born and a lady wearing niqab was talkign to them and she had beautiful eyes, and I wondered if the rest of her was pretty. I think it is hard for kids too. ds looked rather shocked when he first had someone covered in a huge black sheet talk to him!

I'm not sure about Islam. I've met soem lovely muslims, but I don't agree with a lot of the central beliefs. I'd liek to learn more, jsut to understand it better, but it wouldn't appeal to me on a spiritual level.