Islam - What do you think?

[ChaCha]

Hello everybody,

I've been posting on MN for years and have met some lovely people on here. I am a practising Muslim, have been for around 6 years and chose this way of life for myself after much soul searching.
I recently met up with some ladies from my PN group here and not an eyelid was batted about my headscarf or the obvious fact that I am a Muslim. We have been chatting online for a year and a half and it has never been an issue.
It shows me that we can live in a tolerant society and that our own beliefs do not need to be forced upon others. I have found the inner peace that I was looking for for so long and this has prompted meto ask the following:

1. What makes you happy/content in life? What/Who do you turn to when you've had a really bad day? Do you often think about death and how does it effect your day to day life?

2. What comes into mind when you see a woman wearing a headscarf and how do you view Islam?

My thoughts for the day. Thank you. Off to change nappy x

Yes, but if you are told you have to do it, then it isn't personal choice. actually I find it pretty horrendous that there is even the suggestion that it is a good idea, actually. The full face veil I find utterly repellent and obscene.

The face veil is optional....not compulsory....

But the niqab is considered very holy, isn't it? I presume that a muslim would be encouraged to be holier, most religions do encourage that, really.

Yes certainly, but I personally think that the face veil in this country, doesn't give a positive view of Islam and creates more tension....sad really because we are supposed to be a 'free' country but.....

Moondog - I'm off to bed now but I'm going to dig out my books and find something for you re the covering...I don't feel I'm expressing myself well enough...and not because it doesn't hold any water - how very dare you!

Night all!!!

Look forward to it Nikki.
Good night.

1. my family makes me happy and content though they do occasionally drive me nuts. I turn to my partner or my friends or into myself when I've had a bad day.

I sometimes think about death, it doesn't bother me when its me, it bothers me to think about losing my family but I don't believe there is anything after I think you just stop being so i have nothing to be afraid of.

1. headscarfs, chadors, burquas, nun's habits - they don't bother me at all, its pretty common in the area where i live, its just a form of dress and a form of expression and observance, what's there to be bothered by? And I think there are many beautiful sensible parts to islam, as there are with many religions, though I am not religious. Its not the religion its the believer when extremism comes into play and that is the same for islam and it is for christianity as it is for every other belief system.

Cha, thank you for posting such and interesting thread.

I've always been puzzled over the head covering or Orthodox Jewish women (I've eaten sometimes in restaurants where I'm the only woman not wearing a wig). The wiges are gorgeous, sexually desirable, thick hair. May be not quite Britney Spears but not asexual and modest. But I can see the reason religions do different things on women's and men's hair - women's crowing glory etc and most men's hair is not as sexually attractive.

We don't have complete freedom here. I don't see why you can't be nude except in certain places, personally and why we have to have these hang ups so it's not entirely a free country. If they think you'll cause a breach of the peace, like that poor man who was walking naked from Land's End to John O'Groats you can be arrested.

Many teenage girls do not want to be covered and hugely welcome school rules which prohibit it in some areas. They are caught between two cultures and don't get the freedom they should at home. School gives them a chance to run, play, be free, and not have restrictive clothing on. Obvously long trousers don't tend to constrict you unless it's very hot.

We met a man from Leeds in Panama in the summer who was there to marry his second wife. Both wives were there too in their late teens and fully covered. They did go swimming and played ball with my 5 children - they let them borrow the ball too and my daughter was chatting to him (my girls were speculating later as to whether he alternated between bed rooms or whether wife 2 got preference as it was the honeymoon). Anyway those wives swam but they had long tops and trousers on.

In Britian, I see the slave dresses of Moslem women as pretty much the same as punk gear. They are an expression of defiance, and the whole point is to be noticed.
It's a form of politcal expression.
Many Moslems want respect, and have failed to spot how to achieve this in a civilised society. So they dress up funny to make a point.
In the USA, there are radical feminists who travel on the tube topless. They want to "de-sexualise breasts" by making them a common sight. It's just as likely to work as headscarves are to make people respect this particular brand of hysterical superstition.

If some racist like Jack Straw had said that he didn't like talking to redheads, I'm sure some people would have dyed their hair as a response.

Sadly, I thing the Moslem dress thing is undermining the most British of virtues, "not giving a toss". When I was a kid during the punk era, they often got beaten up for looking weird.

Do you really think Jack Straw is a racist DC? I find that a bit strong. He represents a multi-cultural community and asks (not tells) his veiled Muslim constituents if they'd mind lifting the veil so he can see and hear them better. His job is all about communication. I think I'd want to do the same.

I assume he is racist for several reasons, not least pursuing immigration policies as Home Secretary that caused foreign women to be killed by thugs acting under his orders.
When Michael Howard, himself a creature of the night calls policies like separating children from their parents to appease Daily Mail readers "inhumane", what you have is a racist.

What we do not see Mr. Straw doing is complaining about religious groups that have a lot of white people in them.

Well DC,generally they aren't causing too many problems at present in UK.
I agree with the 'wanting to be noticed' thing.If I see a woman in a veil I gjust think she is being very silla nad attention seeking frankly.

at topless feminists.

Coolest way to be subversive is to do it very quielty and discreetly while maintaining facade of conformity

Straw is a Jew so knows a fair bit about persecution would imagine.

as one of Jack Staws constituents am sure he is not rascist, in fact he gets a lot of critism round here for being exactly the opposite. I dont always agree with him but I think he was just trying to say something that a lot of people think but dont know how to approach.

We all want to live here dont we, with as much harmony as possible so why antagonise each other?

oh God here we go again.

I accept their is incompetence here, and my interpretation is it's wilful inability not a personal limitation.
Mr. Straw makes a living out of "people skills", and is in effect an employee of the Moslem women he has problems with.
Holders of great offices of state need to remember that a little more.

Yes the dress impedes non vocal communication.
But surely Mr. Straw is such an important man that he never uses the phone ? We do know that Tony Blair can't use Email.

I can't see how it is more difficult to deal with a Moslem woman (Moslemette ?) on the phone than face to veil.

As a servant (politicos love that word) why is Mr. Straw different to someone in a shop ?
If Sainsbury's "asked" women to remove bits of clothing they didn't like, would you defend this ?

He's not in a court of law where people will be trying to actively deceive him (but veils are allowed anyway).
Some Moslem women have crap English, an issue his party has wilfully ignored, and often actually managed to make worse.

DC you can't blame the govt. for everythnig now!!
its hardly their fault if some Muslim women have crap English. Blimey,so do plenty of Christian white Brits, such as for example the Sloaney twerp from Farrow & Ball on the phone to me this morning.

Female Muslim = Muslimah

md, I think there were suggestions some immigrants had poor liguistic skills because Government were putting on too many foreign language translators for them so they were never able to acquire English (women at home not allowed to work by their men etc) so they never integrate and by cutting back on the translation which I think this Government decided it would do, they would be forced to learn the language.

Why can't Muslims ask men to cover and leave women free to be top less or whatever. Surely that woudl be even better because men would not be able to ogle if they have a huge great grill up against their eyes and cannot cause so many fights or be violent because they'd drip up in their skirts. It's male violence and sexuality that the veil supposedly protects against so why not restrain males through clothing instead of women?

swimming is supposed to be one of the things one is actually supposed to learn, islamically as it is considered a prophetic tradition....sorry this is in response to Aloha's post waaay down (has been an insane day and this is the first time I've mamanged to log on).

I can swim my girls are going to learn to. I can't imagine why a little girl wouldn't swim with her brother, unless she didn't know how and her mother was unable to teach her or something.

My girls actually have small scarves which they wear, sometimes to copy me and wear it out, but the scarves are meant to be worn at prayer times. Women and men both cover their hair at prayer times, religious men actually tend to completely shave their hair off or wear it short cropped, with a small crocheted cap, or other cultural head wear ie the checked heascarves which are so popular in the ME held in place by a black ring type thing.
Restrictions for men, men must wear trousers that are hitched up showing their ankles they can't pray otherwise...it is consdiered a sign of vanity to wear trail ones dishdasha along the floor, they aren't allowed to wear silk or gold, and they aren't actually allowed to wear silhouette hugging clothes either.

I think women tend to adhere more to the dress code more than men do dunno why.

I don't see any comparsion to practicing wearing a tampon with a headscarf, my girls are getting used to wearing a headscarf, a headscarf is for me as much a part of my going out outfit as my jacket for example.

To be perfectly honest, I consider the order to observe hijaab the word of God, so I would do it even if the wisdom behind it was not apparant to me, but I do see that women even in the englightened west, are objectified, pretty girls are used to sell everything from bath foam to beer. I've seen my close friend terrified by strange men on occasion because they think it's perfectly OK to harrass her because shes a beatiful woman....I don't see so much of it happen to men.

I don't expect anyone to understand or agree, my religion is mine and yours is yours, and I honestly do not judge you on your clothing I am therefore bemused that I am judged on my headgear......

Fuzzywuzzy - thank you - you put into words what I was struggling to get across!!

Nikki you'll get the words too, I've spent the best part of two decades refining my technique and I'm still not as good as some of my more knowledgeable friends.
I have to say surah kafiroon makes complete sense to me when I find myself going round in circles in such discussions.

But I must say defending my faith makes me sit up and think and research ond pionder why I do what I do, and if weren't for the Alohas and Moony's MB's and Xenias and even DC's of the world maybe I'd not have the conviction of my worship that I do.

It's interesting to hear about. If you go back to the 1500s in the UK I think women covered up a lot more. The clothes of nuns and priests I think are simply what were the normal clothes of the day when their orders were founded.

I still don't see why we can't keep men closeted away from the world or dressed restrictively and protect women that way and have women wear what they choose rather than protect women by curtailing them. It seems sexist and unfair to me and we fought long and hard in the UK in the 1880s to get women out of clothes which prevented them playing a full part in public life and various jobs although I can see that a headscarve round the head of your doctor, lawyer or surgeon or even Prime Minster is not going to prevent the job being done.

Do we have any Muslim states where they have been able to separate the conservative backward sexist bits that are nothing to do with the Koran yet. What I fear is a regression, a return to much more traditional Muslim practices, an imposition of sharia law in its worst forms, beatings, stonings, women without legal rights. I can't see states progressing right. Did Kuwait give women the vote? I thought at one point there was a general progress going on to improve the lot of women in most of those muslim states but it seems to have been halted and put back by years. If instead we could say in this Muslim nation women are 50% of Parliament, there is a female head of state, women can vote and practise medicine etc it would be a great example to the world that Islam can be fair to women, give them legal rights etc.

I think you make an excellent point Xenia re making the blokes cover up as it seems that the logic of women covering up is to protect them from man.
Nip it in the bud at source-much more sensible. Why should women suffer restrictions on account of men's stupidity?

What say you Nikke and Fuzzy?

If I truly believed that all women wear the niquab through choice then I would say 'why not?'

From what I, as a layperson, can see - the interpretation of Islam is decided by men. I am therefore pleased at the decision last year to ban a schoolgirl from wearing the Jilbab ( head to toe, have I got the term right?)

I think there has been a movement in the UK towards fundamental Islam. The children of Muslims who came to the UK in the 60's/ 70's and 'integrated' have turned full circle and embraced Islam and then some. In the same way that children of 'hippies' in the 70's have become conservative bankers etc.

I worry that if one schoolgirl wears a jilbab others may be pressurised to follow to be seen to be as 'Islamic' as the next.

When i decided to look deeper into Islam some years ago I was given a book written by al-Ghazali, translated by TJ Winters called The Remembrance of Death and the Afterlife. It made me think a lot, answered my many questions and gave me a whole new meaning to life. I initially asked if death was thought about in your day to day lives for this reason. I can't honestly believe that we were created in jest, and that this is our lot. Do you? What do you really think happens after death?

I was then given a book called Muhammad, written by Martin Lings (who sadly passed away not so long ago) would strongly recommend that you read it - just to learn about who he was (peace be upon him) if anything.

I have to get some sleep now but will follow thread tomorrow hopefully - salam to Nikki and FW and [waves] to everyone else. Have enjoyed reading all your posts tonight.