Islam - What do you think?

[ChaCha]

Hello everybody,

I've been posting on MN for years and have met some lovely people on here. I am a practising Muslim, have been for around 6 years and chose this way of life for myself after much soul searching.
I recently met up with some ladies from my PN group here and not an eyelid was batted about my headscarf or the obvious fact that I am a Muslim. We have been chatting online for a year and a half and it has never been an issue.
It shows me that we can live in a tolerant society and that our own beliefs do not need to be forced upon others. I have found the inner peace that I was looking for for so long and this has prompted meto ask the following:

1. What makes you happy/content in life? What/Who do you turn to when you've had a really bad day? Do you often think about death and how does it effect your day to day life?

2. What comes into mind when you see a woman wearing a headscarf and how do you view Islam?

My thoughts for the day. Thank you. Off to change nappy x

I think that, in it's purest form, Islam is a very logical way to live a life.

It's a shame that it's been hijacked by those with political ends.

Yup

My mother used to say, about Catholicism, we don't have everyone, you know. You don't ask and then join. I was thinking of that when they were suggesting Blair might leave the C of E. We might not want him. Very funny bit on Radio 4 today about how long he'd have to spend in confession over the war with Iraq etc.

I think you can make Islam as feminist as you like - I've heard that argued and Christianity. Both were there saying men and women are equal, enough of this men not respecting women or taking 20 wives and Jesus exhorting people not to throw stones at prostitutes. Some people choose to interpret both religions in a sexist way but I don't think they need to be.

Nikki, I am not at all happy about what younger women think they need to do and their aims to get rich men, desire to be famous, to live off male earnings, sole pursuit to have breast surgery and look like film stars. None of that is equal respected and liberated women. What does concern me is Islamic countries which have had university education for women, female doctors etc and then have gone backwards, not because Islam demands it but because of old fashioned men, often conservatives from the countryside. It's a shame. It's a pity that the effect of Bush's war has been to set women's right back over there.

Bubble - I agree. That's why I don't push it with people - it already has enough bad press!

Xenia - really agree about the old fashioned men bit

Blimey - have I just agreed with you???

Well, I think it's mostly quite a sensible religion. Like anything, it can get hijacked by nutcases. I get a bit intimidated by the niqab, but that's a personal issue, really, I've no problem with the more common veils, and like I say, used to wear one as a Christian. Each to their own. World is so big enough to get along together without forcing everyone to conform to our ideas.

Actually, I don't find Islam very different in it's attitude between the sexes.
Under Christianity, women weren't allowed to own property, were frequently told who to marry, homosexuality was illegal and at various times was punishable by death.
The few differences seem to be innovations by Christians like burning witches. Contraception used by women is banned under both views of the world.
If a bloke buggered off, leaving his wife and kids to starve, he might be thought a cad, but they had no call on his money.
The churches weren't too keen on letting women get the vote, something that Islamic republics have always done. In many Christian places there have been specific laws on how large a stick a man may use to discipline his wife.
Martrydom in war is common to both Christianity and Islam. Hint: Joan of Arc wasn't canonised for clothes shopping in a particularly holy way.

What has changed in civilised countries, is that many religious laws are gone. But not that long ago. Divorce laws to protect women, are younger than me, places like Ireland and Italy still have some scary laws on their books, and my mum was older than the right to vote.
Islam's problem isn't the religion, it's less dumb and vicious than Christianity.
It's Moslems.
Neither Jesus not Mohammed said "rape that bitch you know you want to". It is their churches that have used their clout to makes sure really bad crimes go unpunished. All holy books have something like "hurting people is bad". It is religions that run gangs who torture people.
Moslems just haven't managed to tame religion the same way we have. It will come, but it will hurt.

Am still wanting someone to tell me why women must fress like sacks whilechaps get to strut around in ooo, pretty much anything they fancy.

When i get a reasonable explanation of this anomaly i might view Islam more positively.

hey ho
I feel happy & content with the sun on my shoulders, fresh air in my lungs & when I spend good times with friends & family.

I turn to my two best friends & my brother when I'm desperate.

Since my parents died I think about death a lot & have concluded that lifes too short (!)

When I see a woman in a headscarf if I catch her eye I'll smile like I would anyone else - my mum wore a headscarf..but more like the queens or hilda ogdens

I view Islam as I do any religion.Potentially can do a lot of good, tends to get hijacked by people with their own agenda because it's a great tool for controlling people, needs to be questioned.

As a bloke, moondog, I find it very easy to see why Moslem men are so paranoid about female clothing.
It's called sexual inadequacy. It's never even occurred to me to tell "my" woman what to wear. I simply don't find it probable that my woman will be so desperate for competent sex that she will use low cut dresses to pick up men on the tube.
That's why you get their equally nasty views on homosexuality. I'm not gay, I find the whole idea faintly bizarre, but not immoral. If I wanted to bonk blokes I would but I don't.
I meet gay blokes, and don't in any way feel that their superior dress sense will make me want to have sex with them.
Quite why I'd want to stone them, is a complete mystery, OK Graham Norton, but not as a general rule.
Then you have the whole legalised rape thing.
This integrates "well" with the whole forced marriage/multiple wives thing.
A more glaring example of widespread sexual dysfunction is hard to imagine.

It was within my lifetime only and in the UK that a man could not legally rape his wife because it was the culture in the Christian UK as much as anywhere else that you give continuous consent etc in marriage. Is it not just that some Muslims and Christians are old fashioned and will soon catch up?

I seem to recall that legal rape in marriage was only done away with in the 1990s, maybe late 80s.
I don't quite see that as a religious thing though, more a position on what constitutes "consent", which from a practical legal perspective is not always straightforward.
Most happily married couples have had sex when drunk, quite a few under the influence of drugs. Not exactly date rape is it ?
I can't even guess how you'd try to prove that either way.

The assumption in marriage was not a general licence, in that married men had been convicted for rape.
This is not the same as the case of Moslem Pakistan, where 80% of the women in prison are there for "fornication". Many apparently are rape victims.
Given that many of these women had to be treated in hospital after their "fornication", and that this was used in evidence against then, it tells you all you need to know about Moslem countries.

Islamic law gives women's evidence 50% the validity of that of a man. If you consider the conviction rate in Britain poor, imagine the chances in a religious country.

Ahh yes, but what it doesn't often say is that in Islam, if Adultery is committed, then there must be four witnesses to the actual act of penetration, which lets face it - doesn't happen so if Islam was followed properly then convictions for this would be practically non existent.

Also, yes the womans word is worth 50% of a mans in a court of law but the reasoning behind this is that a woman is more likely to lie for someone in court than a man will -and lets face it - it does happen - look at how many girlfriends have covered up for their partners who have committed terrible crimes?? Islam was the first religion that actually gave women rights - to vote, own propertly, keep their name when they married etc so it all has to be taken as a balanced view

the womens evidence being only 50% of a mans is dependant on the case, and what a man/woman would be more likely to know, some cases do not need a mans evidence as a womans will suffice.

I hate the treatment of women in Pakistan their treatment is nothing to do with Islam, yes adulterers (married adulterers), are supposed to face capital punishment for their crimes, but as mentioend four witnesses are required to catch the couple in the act.
During the prophet pbuh's time a man walked in on his wife enflagrante with his neighbour, when he complained to the Prophet (pbuh), he was told to produce four witnesses to the act, the couple divorced the woman gave birth to the neighbours son, and nobody killed anybody......

I swear, if the Prophet (pbuh) were alive today he would not recognise what some people consider to be Islamic practices as such.

As for the headscarf, I find the liberated west is more upset about this little piece of cloth than anyone else,.

Currently Denmark is suffering mass hysteria as a practicing headscarf wearing Muslim woman is standing for parliament, the liberated country thinks that a woman who wears the scarf cannot possibly stand for anything in government as she's clearly oppressed...I agree the woman is oppressed, buy the people who wont allow her the exact same freedoms of every other woman in the country, the freedom to dress how she wants.

OK, here's another silly question, feel free to tell me to sling me hook, but I've been wondering about the girls round our way who wear the headscarf but dress in a totally western way.

Is it just cultural that they wear it? I mean, they've got tight little wiggle jeans on, midriff showing and all, and this black scarf round their head and covering their bust. It's like a moving version of that mix'n'match game, quite strange to look at. I take it they're probably missing the point?

There is confusion amongst people about what consists of a hijaab, some people think hijaab is only the headsccarf, it is supposed to be the entire outfit. ie hijaab should mean the girls is covered and wearing clothes that dont acentuate her silhouette, or maybe the girls are starting out wearing the hijaab, it's not easy putting on a hojaab you know, people stare at you, shout abuse at you, laught at you....... they may be taking baby steps, they may misunderstand what hijaab means, their heascarves may just be this seasons style thaing....

Well, that's kind of what I thought, cheers.

It's good to see this thread appear again

Will post later.

The 50% worth of evidence thing is just plain wrong and ought to be removed.

Yes DC. I go with your reasoning re dress sense but I would like a practicing Moslem to tell me why it is ok.

Fuzzy,you are wrong to think only the Weslt gets its knickers in a twist about headscarves.Three years in Turkey and present dingdong there over President elect have demonstrated this to me.

Nikki,so your post of 17:41 suggests that ingeneral women can't be trusted to tell the truth so their testimony is 'worth' less.
FFS

MD I read the Turkey ban on the heascarves a while back, Turkey is desperate to enter the EU isn't it, mind you I also heard Morroco was following suit, and Egypt got the hump becasue two female news snchors turned up in rather fetching headscarves, one comment 'they can do it if they want we dont wanna see it....' made of course by a man.

The hijaab verse, starts with a warning to believing men to lower their gaze, therefore the primary responsibility is on men not to stare and make women uncomfortable, women are then told to pull their outer wear over their torso and head and also lower their gaze.
I'd say it works wearing a hijaab, means most men won't give me a second look (untill recently given the news etc), I have a gorgeous twenty something friend and she does get admiring/lechorous looks, one cannot stop the latter anymore the former.

For me wearing a hijaab means I determione who can see what.

Men are also restricted on what they can and cannot wear, but I find women take more notice, boys bought up in a lot of Eastern cultures are taught by their mothers that the rules apply to everyone else and not them.....

Btw My hijaab is not a sack, I wear it because I want to, I wouldn't dream of forcing my idea of dress on anyone else, so I don't see why everyone and their neighbour see fit to tell me what to wear.

Moondog- thats not the case at all - see what Fuzzywuzzy said....I apologise if it came across like that. I'm not as versed in Islam as I should be - working on it though

Turkey banned islamic dress ages ago, with the governance of Kamil Ataturk. It far predates the desire of T to join the EU. It has been a secular(muslim majority) state for decades.

I'm reading the facinationg, and very well written 'The Isamost' by Ed Husain BTW. Not sure if the discussion of this should be here, or in the book club.

sorry 'Islamist'