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Philosophy/religion

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999 replies

Januarymadness · 24/04/2013 21:05

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

OP posts:
LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:52

LizzyDay That's what I am trying to explain. Sceptics make as many assumptions as believers (just the opposite assumptions IYSWIM).

I don't see that assuming nothing is making 'many assumptions' Confused

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:53

Pedro - risks,= damnation, deception and curses.

  • assumptions see above for some. There are many more, easier to ask for specific examples.
PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 14:54

So I'm cursed? Oh dear.....

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:54

Lizzy a sceptic assumes that a belief is unlikely / not true.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:54

Pedro I hope not.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:56

Pedro - true Jesus rose from the dead,but He did die in that He experienced death.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 14:59

Daftdame, are you trying to say that not believing in gods requires the same blind faith as belief in gods? Because I don't agree.

Carl Sagan

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 15:05

Snorbs Jesus didn't crucify Himself. It does not really complicate matters that Jesus is God.

We are told that the Christian god needed Jesus to be killed and so arranged for it to happen. But if Jesus is god, then that means that god actually arranged for himself to be killed.

If someone builds a robot programmed to wander up to them one day and shoot them then just because it wasn't that person who pulled the trigger does that mean it wasn't suicide?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 15:06

Sabrina Yes and your choice.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 15:07

Snorbs we are not talking about robots. Human beings are not robots.

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 15:11

While that's true that is still missing the main point of what I'm saying - god arranged for Jesus to be killed, Jesus is god, therefore god arranged for himself to be killed.

That being said the mortals who actually convicted Jesus and nailed him to the cross were, according to the story, without question carrying out god's will. Could they have chosen not to? Did Judas have the free will to not betray Jesus even though that is precisely what god needed him to do?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 15:15

Snorbs God gave us free will. God knows what will happen but because we have free will, He only intervenes without compromising that free will. Jesus' crucifixion fits in with this.

EllieArroway · 10/05/2013 15:28

If God knows in advance what will happen - what we will do and how things will pan out, then we do not and cannot have "free will".

If we do something God was not expecting (demonstrating genuine free will) then his omniscience is violated. And if he's not omniscient, then he's not omnipotent either.

If everything IS known about in advance - not only do we not have free will, but God is directly and wholly responsible for everything bad that ever happens. It's nothing to do with us - we're just puppets.

Omniscience and free will are entirely incompatible and logically impossible.

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 15:32

So you're saying that god didn't arrange for Jesus to be betrayed and crucified, but he did know that that was what was going to happen. Got it.

Therefore god chose to send Jesus to the earth in the full and certain knowledge that if Jesus was there it would inevitably lead to him being crucified, Jesus is god, therefore god arranged for himself to be killed.

If I know that standing in front of a speeding train is going to result in my death then to choose to stand in front of that train means that I have chosen to commit suicide. The only difference with Jesus was that the speeding train took 30-odd years to finally hit but it was just as inevitable.

EllieArroway · 10/05/2013 15:33

Did Judas have the free will to not betray Jesus even though that is precisely what god needed him to do?

Yes, precisely.

Jesus/God had the whole scenario figured out beforehand - he decided that he needed a blood sacrifice of himself (to himself) to save us from sins. Judas was cast in the role of betrayer - if he'd exercised free will and refused, the whole plan would have fallen apart. But of course, God would also have known in advance that Judas would refuse & it would all fail - so it would be pointless anyway.

Doesn't work which ever way you look at it.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 15:46

Lizzy a sceptic assumes that a belief is unlikely / not true.

But again you're talking about absence of evidence vs presence of evidence. That's not quite the same as using the assumption of the presence of something as a starting point.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 15:58

Daftdame - have you read Sabrina's Carl Sagan link below?

It explains it more clearly than I can.

Here it is again:
Carl Sagan

daftdame · 10/05/2013 16:26

Ellie Yes, God has given us free will and knows what will happen (because he knows us). Its a bit of a paradox. God is beyond space and time, it is hard to get your head round especially if you don't have spiritual revelation.

Lizzy My assumption / faith is that the Bible is true. However I can not comprehend the whole of that truth yet. As I go on, in my life experience I am finding a trend of things consistently conforming to the revelation of truth I have from the Bible.

I went through a year of reading New Scientist and related material for example (and was amazed at the above phenomenon) then became bored as the articles started repeating. Ditto, philosophy and literary theory. I was amazed to read a pure maths book, and understand it and relate it to my Biblical understanding but then stopped when I got to large numbers because I still cannot quite imagine them. All this from my quite ordinary beginnings was quite an eye opener for me.

I know there is evidence of God, everywhere I look, but if you want specifics there is a lot out there (Revelation TV have a series on this type of thing) and I have encountered it, then forgotten the specifics (as there is a lot). To be honest the evidence is not my prime concern as I have faith and have spent my time, recently, developing that.

infamouspoo · 10/05/2013 16:29

the whole blood sacrifice to save us from 'sins' never did make much sense to me.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 16:37

infamouspoo it does seem strange agreed. However it does not happen (nor does it need to) after Christ with the New Covenant.

Blood sacrifice also is not restricted to the Old Testament. It is common in Pagan Worship. Also common theme in superstition and myth, Vampires, people who made 'medicine' out of body fluids , Saxon (or was it Viking) warriors who used to bath in blood, cannibalistic practises.

So yes there is something about blood, from what I have understood it is closely related to the spirit.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 17:13

the whole blood sacrifice to save us from 'sins' never did make much sense to me.

Me neither, infamous.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 17:29

Blood sacrifice to me sounds like murder.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 17:30

Pedro - true Jesus rose from the dead,but He did die in that He experienced death.

Still don't get how that's a sacrifice.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 17:42

Pedro the sacrifices were animals, apart from Christ. The sacrifice, well would you fancy dying on a cross?

Spiritual understanding involves the spirit. The Holy Spirit can give you spiritual understanding but you have to decide to believe in Jesus.

So you either 'suck it and see' to understand or you don't and don't understand.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 17:50

christian haters think of themselves as 'true christians' Look at the Westboro baptist church. They think of themselves as 'true christians' regardless of what anyone else said. I suspect Hitler thought the same.

It matters not what he thought, he was a psychopath, and anyone who claims to be a Christian but loves not his brother is bullshitting too.