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Philosophy/religion

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999 replies

Januarymadness · 24/04/2013 21:05

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

OP posts:
Snorbs · 10/05/2013 13:46

I also do not believe that atheism is a 'non-thing'. It is a set of beliefs like any other religion.

You really do struggle with word definitions don't you? Here it is from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

That's all it is. Atheism does not necessarily mean that the atheist in question believes in evolution and the big bang theory, and it doesn't mean that the atheist in question has to hang on every word that falls from the lips of Dawkins or Hitchens.

Atheism just means that the person doesn't believe in gods. That's it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 13:46

"William Dembski the theologian?"

No, William Dembski the mathematician. Silly girl.

This William Dembski?

And don't call Ellie a silly girl.

infamouspoo · 10/05/2013 13:49

'and condemn every bit of bullshit that the superstitious come out with which is actively harmful ie racism, misobyny, homophobia and of course blasphemy laws, which should all be abolished.'

right behind you with that bit. And I'd add bullshit that actively goes against useful science like those who deny any man made pollution because hey, it doesnt matter cos Jesus is coming back any second so who cares if we pollute and irradiate.

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 13:57

daftdame thanks for that. So are you saying that the Christian god can kill innocent people provided that the victim agrees with being killed?

Hang on, I think I've got it - Jesus was an innocent person. He then agreed to be killed. That's effectively suicide which is a serious sin under Jewish law. So Jesus became a sinner so was therefore ok for god to kill him.

It all starting to make sense now.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:00

It was not suicide because he did not kill himself. Murder victims are still murder victims if they do not fight back.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:03

Snorbs disbelief is a belief in itself, in the same way as non-action is an action because you are deciding not to act. Both have risk associated with them, both have consequences, both decisions involve assumptions.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:12

Daftdame - I think you're getting the definitions of 'belief' conflated.

eg freedictionary definitions:

  1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
  1. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.

There's a subtle difference between the two. I would say religious belief is about definition 1. above.

Atheist 'belief' (or rather 'non-belief') is about definition 2. It's not about trust or confidence in another - it's simply about true or false. Like saying you don't believe Santa exists, or you believe it might rain tomorrow.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:18

LizzyDay But if you judge 'false' it's just as much an assertion as judging 'true', both involves assumptions in the absence of proof.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:24

"LizzyDay But if you judge 'false' it's just as much an assertion as judging 'true', both involves assumptions in the absence of proof."

Not sure I follow - but okay - to believe in a god requires a conscious decision to place your faith in the god despite the fact that there is no objective evidence for that god's existence.

To not believe in a god (because there is no evidence for it) is simply the default position - there's no 'despite' about it.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:25

SolidGoldBrass agree in regard to superstition.

However Christianity is not about superstition. Superstition involves following a traditional sets of rules in contexts where they no longer apply.

My Christian faith is not static, my faith grows and I get deeper revelation on where and how the rules apply each day. But it is not instant, a Christian grows in their faith, thus we do not have all the answers immediately upon salvation. The Bible is described as the Living Word for this reason.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:26

LizzyDay a more neutral position would be Agnostic.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 14:30

You could describe non-belief as 'sceptical' and belief as 'faith' or even 'blind faith'.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:39

LizzyDay a more neutral position would be Agnostic.

I see what you're saying (I think), but I don't agree that being atheist (as in not believing in the existence of gods) amounts to a 'belief system' in the same way that is a religion is.

To trot out a well-worn example, there's no objective evidence for the existence of unicorns, so I don't believe they exist. I can't prove it, but I have no reason to believe it so I don't. Am I agnostic about unicorns? If you like, but I'm not sure it's really a useful distinction as you could apply the reasoning to pretty much anything you don't think exists but have no way of proving that it doesn't.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:41

Sabrina Scepticism involves bias (and assumption) just the same as faith. Perhaps I should say you are a 'blind sceptic'?

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 14:41

It was not suicide because he did not kill himself. Murder victims are still murder victims if they do not fight back.

But a suicide victim is still a suicide victim whether he ties a noose around his own neck or he stands in front of a fast-moving train.

Also, would it complicate matters if we recall what Jewcy said about Jesus being god?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:44

Snorbs Jesus didn't crucify Himself. It does not really complicate matters that Jesus is God.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 14:45

Pedro so do you believe in Quantum Physics?

I don't think 'believe' is the right word. QP is a theory which describes particles on a subatomic level. The theory has been tested more times and with greater accuracy of its predictions than any other branch of science in the history of science. So I'd say that I concur with the current model of QP as far as my understanding of it allows.

Why do you think it does not make sense?

I never said I thought that, but the observed properties of subatomic particles are difficult to understand because they don't adhere to the rules of macro physics which humans are optimised to respond to.

Is it because it does not exist or because we, as humans, do not know, thus can not make sense of everything?

Well, QP exists, because it is just a theory and framework which scientists developed so I'm not sure what your question is.

Would you say that in fact reality exists beyond our understanding of it?

Most certainly. We don't know everything.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 14:46

Jesus didn't crucify Himself. It does not really complicate matters that Jesus is God.

Well it does actually, because if Jesus was God and God still exists then he didn't sacrifice anything at all.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:47

LizzyDay do you only believe in the things which can be proved? How do you explain all the future discoveries, non -existent?

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:47

Daftdame - sceptics are the least likely people to make assumptions about anything, surely?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:48

Pedro He did because Jesus died.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 14:50

Snorbs disbelief is a belief in itself, in the same way as non-action is an action because you are deciding not to act. Both have risk associated with them, both have consequences, both decisions involve assumptions.

What risks does atheism have? And what assumptions?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 14:50

LizzyDay That's what I am trying to explain. Sceptics make as many assumptions as believers (just the opposite assumptions IYSWIM).

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 14:51

LizzyDay do you only believe in the things which can be proved? How do you explain all the future discoveries, non -existent?

I believe stuff is 'true' when there is sufficient evidence for me to believe it, I suppose, yes.

If I could explain all future discoveries, I'd be very rich Grin Of course new things will be discovered, as they have always been.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 14:51

Pedro He did because Jesus died.

But Jesus is god. And god is not dead, so he didn't die. And to add to that Jesus was resurrected anyway. Some sacrifice.