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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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Original poster

YEC 2

999 replies

Januarymadness · 24/04/2013 21:05

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

OP posts:

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 17:51

daftdame, where do you stand on young earth creationism? (just as that's what the thread was originally about).

SolidGoldBrass · 10/05/2013 17:51

Oh FFS the story of Jesus and the crucifixion is the same old agricultural allegory. It didn't happen. There are loads of versions of this basic story in loads of different myth systems; the core of it is the life cycle of plants which grow, are cut down, and them come up again. That's all it means and represents. The frills and different spins that were added in different times and places had more to do with the circumstances of the tribal leaders/shamanic class who invented them than any universal truth ie some would have more emphasis on betrayal, others on obedience and disobedience, and some on the importance of self-sacrifice at the end of an allotted time of indulgence. Other myths that get bundled in with the core myth, again, reflect the personality quirks and prejudices of the people who invented them; another common strand to the mythologies that ended up with the most power is that they all focus on ways for birth not to be under women's control. Because it's the one thing that men can't do and women can, so it has to be minimized and controlled and given to men in any way possible. So the 'special' people have to be born out of a male god's forehead, or found in a seashell, or the important factor in the birth is who's the daddy in some really really important way, honest...

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 17:52

God has given us free will and knows what will happen (because he knows us). Its a bit of a paradox.

In other words "It clearly doesn't make sense but I'm going to accept it anyway". Another example of what can only be described as blind faith.

As I said to Best, one of the real tragedies of the Abrahamic religions in particular is that they teach people to be satisfied with that kind of thought process.

There are endless problems and paradoxes raised by the contradictory reports of the nature of the Abrahamic god. The killing of Egypt's first-born is one. Exactly who was sacrificed on the cross, to whom they were sacrificed, who was responsible for that sacrifice and why that sacrifice was needed are some more.

Yet you are encouraged to hand-wave your way past these contradictions and paradoxes with the circular reasoning of believing that your god did it therefore it was fine, and you can be sure it was fine because your god wouldn't have done it if it wasn't.

That's not enough for me. It makes me mildly depressed that is enough for so many people.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 17:55

But the trouble is that a lot of people's imaginary friends are shitheads. And that tends to be because the people who invented them were shitheads, motivated by the wish to have power over other people and get the best of available resources. And some people still think that having an imaginary friend is a justification for harming other people, denying them their rights and even killing them. That's why it's important to mock and belittle superstition, and condemn every bit of bullshit that the superstitious come out with which is actively harmful ie racism, misobyny, homophobia and of course blasphemy laws, which should all be abolished

SGB, before you go for a much-needed lie-down let me tell you this: being a shithead is not the preserve of power-crazed egotists claiming to belong to the one true God. People who lack a belief in God/gods/fairies can also be shitheads and cause much pain in the world.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:06

You really do struggle with word definitions don't you? Here it is from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Here's another definition for you, love, from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Religion: a pursuit or interest that is very important to someone.

I would suggest that this interest of yours (to pronounce the non-existence of God or gods; your iconoclastic devotion in other words) is demonstrable on these very boards. You have a set of beliefs which dictate that there is no God.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 18:19

The sacrifice, well would you fancy dying on a cross

If I were god it probably wouldn't bother me that much in the scheme of things.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 18:20

The top OED definition of religion is A state of life bound by religious vows; the condition of belonging to a religious order.

And sorry, but we're allowed to discuss it.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 18:21

Sabrina YEC - don't fully know what it is but I believe the Bible.

I know you atheists think it is madness but I have found having faith is great, fascinating, amazing and I can finally enjoy life, without looking over my shoulder. Before I became stronger in my faith I used to get crippled with fear and worry, I don't want to accept worldly thinking, that depresses me.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 18:21

Spiritual understanding involves the spirit. The Holy Spirit can give you spiritual understanding but you have to decide to believe in Jesus.

Yeah I'm not going to subscribe to any type of understanding which has entry requirements like. Otherwise I'd be a Scientologist.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 18:22

daftdame, I'm genuinely happy for you if you have a personal faith. Thanks for answering.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:27

And don't call Ellie a silly girl.

Miss, please can you tell SGB not to call me mentally ill, then?

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 18:28

While I'm touched that you think this kind of thing is so important to me I must reveal that it really isn't. My non-belief in gods is far from iconoclasm (iconoclasty? I don't even know how to decline the verb). It wouldn't even qualify as a hobby.

Every now and then I get drawn into these kinds of debates on here as I find them fun and I learn stuff. Most of the time though I don't give religion a single thought from one week to the next.

It's like the way I sometimes get drawn into debates on here about conspiracy theories. I can put up some good arguments for why the people who think 9/11 was an inside job are talking bollocks but it's hardly something that defines me as a person or even something that I think about very often.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 18:29

You have a set of beliefs which dictate that there is no God.

How many times? It's not a set of beliefs which dictate anything. It is one non-belief.

It is certainly possible to have a set of beliefs which dictate that there is no god, but that's not what atheism is.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:30

Hang on, I think I've got it - Jesus was an innocent person. He then agreed to be killed. That's effectively suicide which is a serious sin under Jewish law. So Jesus became a sinner so was therefore ok for god to kill him.

If you can't understand the Christian concept of deity you don't deserve to be on these boards.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 18:31

Miss, please can you tell SGB not to call me mentally ill, then?

I think the suggestion of mental illness was a genuine concern with a genuine suggestion that you seek some help or advice. Rather than your flippant quip.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:37

Pedro so do you believe in Quantum Physics?

I don't think 'believe' is the right word. QP is a theory which describes particles on a subatomic level. The theory has been tested more times and with greater accuracy of its predictions than any other branch of science in the history of science. So I'd say that I concur with the current model of QP as far as my understanding of it allows.

...so you believe, then. Just answer the question, will you?

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:38

To trot out a well-worn example...

Please don't.

infamouspoo · 10/05/2013 18:39

'If you can't understand the Christian concept of deity you don't deserve to be on these boards.'

I dont think you get to dictate.
And Christian concept of deity seems to vary depending on which christian sect you belong too. I cant say I really understand too well any of them. Which sect are you and what is your understanding? Like the trinity. I really cant understand that one.

Snorbs · 10/05/2013 18:39

If you can't understand the Christian concept of deity you don't deserve to be on these boards.

As most Christian denominations' concept of their deity is built on the idea of the Trinity then I'll readily admit I don't understand it.

Do you understand the Trinity? Can you explain it to me please?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/05/2013 18:40

The board is called philosophy, religion, spirituality. Anyone can post on these boards - but there are some lovely prayer threads which I wouldn't post on being a non-believer.

And yes, agree with pedro re. the sgb remark about mental illness. But I think it was Best that did the 'silly girl' quip.

Jewcy · 10/05/2013 18:41

Daftdame, are you trying to say that not believing in gods requires the same blind faith as belief in gods? Because I don't agree.

Carl Sagan

Sabrina, I would prefer it if you had explained why you don't agree without using Sagan's reason for not agreeing.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 10/05/2013 18:43

...so you believe, then. Just answer the question, will you?

I'm terribly sorry that I bored you with something you don't understand. I answered the question, it's not about belief.

LizzyDay · 10/05/2013 18:53

...so you believe, then. Just answer the question, will you?

Believe in the sense of 'I believe I concur with that theory' is not the same definition of belief as 'belief in religion'. One requires faith and trust and emotional commitment, the other doesn't.

I know some religious people like to suggest otherwise - why I'm not sure, maybe to try and characterise atheists as some sort of confused robotic adherents to science as a substitute religion?

daftdame · 10/05/2013 19:04

LizzyDay - you see for me belief is belief.

It means the same whether you refer to science or Christianity. It means that you are asserting something even though you can't state it as fact because you don't have all the info. Otherwise you would just be able to state it as fact, i.e. the theory is therefore true (or such like).

Science does become like a religious belief if you are holding it above (saying it takes precedent) over other beliefs, which you kind of are if you genuinely think belief in science does not require any faith. What do think assumptions and prior assumptions actually are?

As for emotion, I could be wrong, but I detect there has been some emotion involved in the forceful way opinions have been expressed on here.

daftdame · 10/05/2013 19:12

LizzyDay and trust, well people trust the scientists...There has been some really bad 'science' over the years. Think of all the lobotomies carried out, mass sterilisations all considered good science in their day.

This is why you have to be just as rigorous examining conscience with science as you do in religion.

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