YEC 2

[Januarymadness]

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

ICBINEG

So this three element proof... etc

Ha ha! You've summed up in about 10 sentences what took me about 100. I really must try harder to be concise.

What are your thoughts about "nothing", out of interest.

nothing? :)

Personally I am going to ignore Jewcy on the basis of...well pretty much everything they have said so far...but mostly:

1. They are glad someone is dead
2. They don't believe atheists can respect theists
3. The whole drunken disruption thing...I mean that's what's going on right here isn't it? They have switched sides but they haven't actually become in any sense a better person...

Best. You asked me some questions. I will give you a few answers and andwer the rest when I have more time if thats ok.

You asked me why I call GOD a he. I do this because of social and cultural indoctrination. Not because I have a positive belief that a deity is male.

You asked if I believe in a single God. I believe in a greater power. Only a single God is necessary to satisfy that belief so that is how I choose to represent. I am not closed to the possibility of more than 1 greater power.

Do I believe in a personal God who can answer prayer? Probably not. If he can answer prayer and never tires then he is a lazy sod. Too many horrible things and acts in the world. For example. I, and many others screamed prayers at him to save a child we had never met, but knew only through words. The child died.

I think we are more of one of Gods science projects. A bit like an ant farm. Maybe intervention is possible but it is rare.

The more I see about your God the less I want him to be mine. That saddens me because through my life I have known a LOT of genuine and good Christians.

I won't argue with ICBINEGs theology as I think I am probably nearer her thinking than I am bests.

It is down to that locked box really. I think I smell lemons, i think there is a lemon in it. She is far more likely than I to be right. I just cant shake that lemony scent.

Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic!

Thinking about quantum fluctuations. If physicists have tried to remove "everything" from a vacuum, and still found these QFs, then that means that we have yet to experience anything that could truly be described as "nothing". I tend to say (rightly or wrongly) in debates like this that, if we have no experience of nothing, then it's impossible to say whether it can or can't do something - or even if it exists at all. Like I said to Best, I have often wondered whether there's actually any such thing as "nothing" - an odd thought.

Or maybe, "nothing" will always have QFs, in which case we can never say that something can't come from nothing.

I may be talking cobblers &/or missing something fairly fundamental, so was wondering what the professional take on that is.

January I like that lemon analogy. From all of your posts it seems like you feel "instinctively" that there's something there, even if you don't feel entirely able to explain it. I always find this point of view more interesting & persuasive than the claims some people have of revelation, to be honest.

I think we are more of one of Gods science projects. A bit like an ant farm. Maybe intervention is possible but it is rare

That sounds more deist than theist & I think, if I believed in a god, I'd think the same as you. A non-interventionist God is far more compatible with the world we actually experience than the one most theists claim to believe in. So, personally, I find YOUR position much, much more interesting than "He gave his only begotten son".

Just my thoughts.

I do recall looking into deism but I rejected the term for some reason. I can't now remember what that reason was. Maybe I will give it another go.

I have always instinctively believed in a God and I have tried to convince myself into Christianity for a long time. Most people think this must be my upbringing but my Mum is an atheist and my Dad has never really expressed an opinion. He certainly never attended church with me.

At school I made friends with christians and went to christian youth groups. I never got to the point where I could honestly accept communion though. I just didn't fit. I can tell you the exact moment when I realised organised religion was probably not for me.

Year 8 History class. Topic Pergatory. Sitting next to my very christian friend I asked her if she believed in pergatory. She told me that she would "have to ask".

I could never accept having to ask someone what I believed in. I am a strong supporter of independent thought. Being told what I must think was never going to be a path I could honestly follow.

For those of you who think my behaviour in bursting into church 'strange', please re-read my post and note that this was during the period when I was an alcoholic. I was always drunk on those occasions and rather angry. Gosh, I am glad I have not shared some of the other, far more grievous stuff

For that matter I don't believe any atheist else here has ever claimed to have deliberately disrupted church services either.

Hmm...I have noticed this. But, then again, atheists don't do a right lot these days except hang on to the coat tails of celebrity iconoclasts.

Did you only target Christian churches or did you disrupt services in synagogues and mosques as well?

No, just a CofE church whose members kept trying to help me when I was living on the streets. They were servants of the God I grew up in Sunday school with; I had no desire to attack anyone else because no-one else ever tried to feed me and keep me warm - including atheists. Bastards.

FWIW I believe atheists have never suffered the degradation of the soul. They have never lost themselves entirely to the dust. They do not know that level of suffering. By 'suffering' I do not mean illness, the end of one's life, infertility, the loss of a loved one, pain, prostitution, homelessness. These are all horrendous and painful to be burdened with and can feel like a certain 'hell' on earth. But there is hope to be found in all of these still; we can still know ourselves and feel worthy of love, but when you find your very soul is degraded and you become the only person on Earth because you belong to no-one and do not know who you are or what you need, then you will reach out into the firmaments. And there you will find God.

Anyone who tells me otherwise who has never suffered that degredation is simply arrogant in my eyes. But then again I believe the true meaning of the word 'atheist' is 'worshipper of oneself'.

January, you can't possibly find my viewpoint 'fascinating'. You're yanking my chain, right? January, am I allowed to say I really struggle with the earth being only 6,000 years old? Am I allowed to say that as a fairly recent Christian? Because of the dinosaurs and stuff. I have no doubt in God's power to create the universe in six days but I wonder whether God created the world and then let evolution run its course? I mean, we're evolving even now, right? I don't believe we came from apes, though. I also don't see how science can be right about everything - all this billions-of-years stuff boggles my brain.

It's like the flood: I don't believe it covered the entire earth. I think it seemed like the entire earth at the time of writing and I believe the waters covered the earth as far as could be discerned.

I will say that I think that's a perfectly disgusting thing to say and that you shame your fellow Christians by speaking like that. I am of "his ilk", so you think I'm the anti-christ. Fine. That truly says considerably more about you than it does about me of Hitchens.

I guess it is pretty disgusting, Ellie, especially as I am taught to love my enemies. Maybe time will make me a nicer person. Wait, no..

Show me the hope in terminal illness, the loss of a loved one -especially a child, infertillity, murder..... You think no one has suffered like you have? and you call others arrogant.....

I have arguments and sympathy for everything and everyone on these threads. We are having open discussions and debate. I have called an atheist on it and I will call you on it too. Name calling and put downs are NOT acceptable here.

First of all, January, I didn't say I have suffered more than anyone else, now did I? Apology please.

Secondly, yes, there is hope to be found in lots of heartbreaking situations in life. We go on living and usually these experiences make us stronger. Massive good can come out of some things: charities are set up and save the lives of others; laws are changed; lives are transformed. Do not twist my words when I say I believe atheists have not suffered a degredation of the soul.

This is my opinion. I cannot back it up with any evidence. So what? I will say whatever I like. Don't atheists possess a certain self-love?

Show me the hope in terminal illness, the loss of a loved one -especially a child, infertillity, murder....

Have you actually experience any of the above, January? You certainly don't appear to have, which means you have no experience of hope in any of these situations. So herein our discussion ends, I guess

love of ones self is not the ground exclusively or wholly possessed by the atheist or anyone else for that matter. The two do not follow suit.

You made it very clear that anyone who has not visited the bottom of your particular pit has no right to a view. Pain and suffering are the possession of those who have suffered. The judgement as to who has suffered most or the hardest is not yours to make.

you know neither me, my life or any of the struggles I may or may not have waded through.

Icbineg - Totally agree with your post at 15:11.

So many words and so little sense. Dearie me.

Year 8 History class. Topic Pergatory. Sitting next to my very christian friend I asked her if she believed in pergatory. She told me that she would "have to ask"

That is so, so, so true. You were a scientist from Year 8! I like the fact that none of this came from your parents too - makes it a truly independent conclusion. I have always said that I don't mind in the least if my son became a theist as long as he arrived there by himself and not because someone just told him it was true :)

Icbineg - Totally agree with your post at 15:11

Me too.

You made it very clear that anyone who has not visited the bottom of your particular pit...

And where did I say that, January? Do not put words in my mouth. I will ask you again, however: have you experienced any of the things you mentioned above?

who hasn't experienced at least one of those....

I agree that suffering is relative. I also believe an atheist has not suffered degradation of the soul.

Loads of people, January, loads and loads and loads. Some people have led very privileged and largely untainted lives and have no experience of degradation.

Jewcy, you sound like you were a rather unique atheist. Perhaps your beliefs at the time were driven more by your anger at a particular church and your upbringing than any clear and rational thought about whether gods actually exist. I tend to find most atheists have a broader and more reasoned basis for why they believe what they believe.

then you will reach out into the firmaments. And there you will find God.

How extraordinarily coincidental that the god you found was the god you were taught about as a child. Good job you weren't raised Hindu or any one of a thousand other religions because then you'd be completely stuffed, wouldn't you?

But then again I believe the true meaning of the word 'atheist' is 'worshipper of oneself'.

I suggest you consult a dictionary. It's not a difficult definition.