The Muslim Tearoom

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Brockle - I'm sorry you feel so much anger although not sure why. I'm not sneering at all I just looked over the last few posts: I have delurked because someone talked about Turkish practices and that is something I know a lot about. Then I tried to explain how I use the word "fundamentalist" (in its correct, dictionary meaning, not as an insult and certainly not as a synonym for "extremist"). None of it was spoiling for a fight. This is not my first time on this thread and I am under the impression that it is open for debate rather than a safe place for only the faithful to talk to each other.

Cote, did you stop to think that perhaps you have offended a non-Muslim poster who has been lurking on this thread and they reported you?

It's strange sis Crescent, I never believed in FC but I never talked about it to the other kids who did believe. My younger sister told me (very recently), that she had decided that FC didn't come to our house as he knew we didn't celebrate xmas lol.

Despite not being remotely christian Christmas has always been my most favourite festival (that I don't celebrate), I love the lights the decoration the festivities the general euphoria and madness that it brings.

Tell you something funny, as my girls go to an Islamic school they have been taught the stories of the Prophets (as) and thro their tafseer classes they learn the stories from the Quran, so a while ago now my DD's friends were all having new baby brothers and sisters and my eldest approached me to ask that I have a baby brother or sister for her. I tried to expalin that one needs a daddy for a baby, to which my eldest replied 'Mummy, Isa (AS) did not have a daddy but he was born..' I told her that was completely different, to which she responded 'I just don't think you're taking this seriously enough, you just aren't praying hard enough for a baby, if you made dua we could have a baby too....'!!!!

Imagine explaining that one to my parents! lol

Cote - we have to "debate" Islam enough elsewhere on Mumsnet and in life generally, this is a chat thread.

We are not demanding a safe space, but it's clear that this thread has a certain tone to it and it seems unwise to insist that people should debate with you. Especially so many of your general arguments seem to boil down to us apparently being a bit thick and not practicing Islam in the way you think we should.

On topic, dd's school is very mixed and I would say that most of the children are not Christian, but they still do a nativity. Dd does celebrate xmas with my parents, so I don't mind her learning about the story of Christmas, it just depends how they do it.

My Mum did try and get her to believe in FC (despite me asking her not to), but we talked about it and I explained it's a nice story to tell children that's based on a very kind man, St Nicholas, who lived a long time ago. She was fine with that, probably because she'll still get presents anyway.

According to dd, she has spoken to God and God loves Eid and Christmas, so there you go

crescent - re "you might still be accused of being a closet Muslim just like Obama"

For what purpose would I go around saying "none of it makes sense to me" if that were the case? If I believed, I would surely want to take my place in the ummah. After all, community is one main benefit of any religion.

Extreme right-wing Americans are not normal people - just take a look at the declarations of Tea Party & Sarah Palin for example. That Obama is a secret Muslim whose real purpose is to fight on the side of Al Qaeda is just one of their insane allegations.

That Erdogan has shown himself to be a liberal democrat who just happens to be Muslim to garner support for his political changes is now pretty well understood by everyone. Did you read the Bloomberg link I posted? It is very recent.

"Look, I'm curbing powers of the army because generals should have no say in a democracy" he said and gullible liberals as well as Western media applauded. "I'm threw hundreds of top army officials and journalists because they were preparing a coup d'état", he said and they applauded again. Now they realise that over 500 people who Erdogan considered a threat are in jail without a charge for over 3 years, oh and all "evidence" against them was clearly manufactured (a document "found" in someone's PC which is saved in a version of Word that is too recent to have existed in that year, for example), and now his cronies are in all top army posts and media can say nothing but praise about the government for fear of being thrown in jail.

This is the reality. Please look it up if you don't believe me.

"Fatal to say if u were to tske a religion it would be islam- u must exhibit and articulate extreme self loathing and hatred of ur Muslim ancestors. Otherwise u might as well be a mulslm."

I honestly don't understand what ^ that is supposed to mean.

I have no hatred of my ancestors whatsoever, especially the ones I have known: my lovely grandparents who are now gone. What a horrible thing to insinuate, crescent. I hope I have misunderstood.

"I disliked ur last paragraph In ur last post cote. Uncalled for as we want this thread about uniting on what we are not uniting on what we are not."

We could have looked at it again if you hadn't report it and MNHQ were not so trigger-happy. From memory, I was saying how Islam looks slightly more rational to me because it doesn't expect people to believe in laughable nonsense like virgin birth, stale biscuits & wine physically turning into the flesh & blood of a man dead for 2000 years, cryptic silliness like "he is 100% man but also 100% God" etc.

I don't remember asking people to prepare their pitchforks to unite in attacking Christianity, so not sure why you say it was "uncalled for" & "uniting". I was merely explaining why if I believed in God, I would probably be Muslim rather than Christian - birthplace & notable difference in the rationality of the stories.

"us apparently being a bit thick and not practicing Islam in the way you think we should."

Not at all. I say how I see things, you reply with how you see things. Hopefully we both understand other viewpoints better as a result. It is called a conversation. Debate, if you like.

I don't think I ever said "This is how you should do it" but challenged some people's view that goes "Ours is the only way to do things". Where Hadith contradicts Quran, I said "But Quran says it is complete, perfect, fully-detailed and all you need to know", for example. That isn't to say "This is how you should do it" but wanting to see the counter argument, if there is one.

Cote - I'm not sure how to put this politely, but I'm not sensing a massive interest here in your viewpoint.

You make your points and people answer to be polite, or not leave whatever you're asserting to be unchallenged, but they are never particularly enriching conversations. As I said previously, the internet is not short of people wanting to debate Islam and Muslims.

Also, you are frequently extremely condescending to us in tone, both here and elsewhere on Mumsnet, the way you insisted we should not object to you calling us fundamentalists being just one example of this.

You want to tell us how we should practice our religion, you want to tell us what we should be discussing on here and you want to feel free to call us whatever. Meanwhile, we should just meekly accept all that and accept you taking up our time and space on this thread when you appear to have very little respect for us, or what we want to talk about.

786 posts! Now that is meant to be a deeply religious number isn't it? It is in the Asian sun-continent but I'm not exactly sure why? They have it plastered all over those Bollywood movies don't they?

Cote, I reported your post. I don't want to get into an argument or debate with you but to answer your question, it was the whole 'hiding behind a black curtain and away from men' comment that I found deeply offensive. I don't wear an abbaya/hijab/niqab! Nor do I 'hide' from men, well only my embarrassing uncles on Eid! I have also found your earlier tone inappropriate, you use the word 'fundamentalists' too freely and keep mentioning its 'dictionary meaning' however you and I both know how people feel and see 'fundamentalist Muslims'!

Crescent interesting you say about the Hindu that has translated that particular poem, i remembered the shrine in Ajmer, India. Not sure what to make of it all really, I remember visiting when I was 13, it's a lovely place full of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs just praying really! Also love that Rose Duaa it is beautiful, had to say the last bit out loud to get it! :-)

I'm gonna sound really thick here but you know in surah inshirah where it says 'so one hardship cannot overcome two reliefs' - what does this actually mean? Fuzzywuzzy have said lots of prayers for your daughter, I'm sure she will do great inshallah.

Defuse I can't really answer your question in that I don't have any children however I think personally I would not stop them from partaking in the nativity play. You can still teach them about Mary and Jesus, in fact doing the nativity will help them connect with Christianity and strengthen their islamic beliefs.

From my understanding, that verse means that with every one hardship Allah sends down two reliefs, so no hardship will ever overcome the believer as two reliefs will always overcome one hardship.

There's a beautiful lectrure by sis Yasmin Mogahed and she explains it so beautifully, I'll see if I can find it.

As a Christian, I just want to say I enjoy reading this thread - find it really interesting.
Totally agree with comments about Cote's condescending approach to any debate : " I'm right, you're wrong "
Please don't be pulled off topic by it, as I love the thread !

"it was the whole 'hiding behind a black curtain and away from men' comment that I found deeply offensive"

That is what it is, though. A large black cloth (like a curtain) from which only the eyes peer out. And it hides the women under it. That is kind of the point, isn't it - for it to hide the body, face and hair of the woman it's covering.

Would you care to explain what you find offensive about that?

Kind of putting a downer on a lovely thread there Cote . If you want to whip off your bra and incinerate it why don't you hop onto a more appropriate thread and allow the conversation to resume its pleasant ebb and flow.

No Cote, I think no one one would care to explain why you're being offensive. You've been told repeatedly that you are, that should be sufficient. No one on here owes you anything, so stop making demands of people.

All you are doing now is derailing the thread. No one wants to "debate" with you, so I suggest you either participate in the conversations we are actually having, or go elsewhere. This is getting tedious and boring.

Also enjoy reading this thread as a Christian. Wonder why when someone is told by many people that they are being offensive/derailing thread/condescending etc then they should still be convinced it is everyone else with the problem? I hope to be able to lurk longer in the Muslim Tearoom and learn more about the Islam faith.

Gosh - Did you mean to be so rude?

"Stop making demands of people"? It is not a taxing demand to ask someone what she finds offensive in a comment.

zulu - If you don't mind, I would like to continue a conversation with crescent. And I would like to do that for a bit despite the piling on that I'm receiving.

crescent - re "virgin birth is part of orthodox muslim belief about Jesus"

Indeed it is. I was thinking of immaculate conception (of Mary). Sorry about the mistake.

Mary being a virgin during Jesus' conception actually makes sense for Christianity imho, because if he is really the son of God, he can't be the genetic mix of two humans. I wonder why Islam continued with the virgin birth story, although it considers Jesus a mere man so it would make sense for him to be the product of two people.

" i meant to insinuate no such thing. i should have written clearer forgive me"

I thought I must have misunderstood. No worries. I understand what you meant now.

"its not just tin foil hate brigade that demand 'renounce everything or else your in league with them!', either, theres powerful neo conservatives and many among the new atheist movement as well as Tea party voters and/or sympathisers."

How much are you in the UK affected by the neocon movement? I thought it was primarily a US problem. Do you have politicians in the UK who go with the 'renounce everything or else your in league with them!' line?

It is true in Islam Jesus (AS) is a man, he is described in the Quran as being the son of no man, he is the son of the lady Mary and is called thus throughout the Quran, the lady Mary is one of the ladies of paradise and the only woman named in the Quran.
She was a virgin and a righteous woman, her son was the word of Allah, He said Be and Isa (AS) came to be, Allah sent John the Baptist before him to prepare the way for Isa (AS) ministry and Isa (AS) was strengthened with the Holy Spirit Gibrael (AS) & performed many miracles by the will of Allah.

As a Muslim I accept this as the truth.

Seriously Cote, you don't believe, that is your personal choice, please don't sneer & belittle our beliefs. There are plenty of threads here which belittle faiths and those of faith this thread is not one.

Your beliefs are very clearly not ours and ours are not yours.

Salaam all. Thanks for the responses regarding the nativity. Still dont know what i will end up doing. Will go with the flow for now and then gauge the dc's reaction and also the school's opinion and take it from there.

Cote, islam continued with the truth. You want to look at genetics of it all! Seriously?? Muslims are also awaiting the return of Jesus - when he will unite everyone. It is mind blowing how Jesus is a miracle from beginning and forever more.

Just watching the links you put up crescent. I didnt know there was a 'india's got talent' show.

I used to be a sami yusuf fan...really liked his 'muallim' nasheed. He also had another nasheed video with all these male models of colour - dont remember what it was called, but i had to stop watching when i realised that i am looking at the models more than i am listening to the nasheed!

I really like this urdu nasheed at the moment - dont know how old it is but i have just come across it recently -with english subtitles.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ru75HVSjh4