The Muslim Tearoom

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Hajj is only perscribed if wealth and health permits.

Someone who does not wish to perform the hajj along with any of the other five pillars of islam is hardly a practicing muslim.

I'd call myself a Muslim full stop.

Following Quran and Sunnah is not following a literal interpretation of Islam either it is practicing Islam, things like alcohol consumption are very clear there is no maybe's about it nor any metaphors which could have existential meanings alcohol is forbidden in Islam there's no debate, the five pillars of islam are the fundamentals of our faith, if you do not practice them then on what basis do you identify as a Muslim, basically you believe that there is one God and you believe that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was his messenger. So yep thats a Muslim who doesnt really practice.

Now if you say you do not accept the Shahadah, then you're not a Muslim.

"Someone who drinks (it is pretty explicitly frobidden in the Quran and the Hadith)"

Not that explicit in the Quran iirc but in any case, it is possible to say "God said that to the people of those times and to the weak who were liable to lose control. It is perfectly fine for me to have a glass of wine at home with my wife without getting drunk" or whatever. That would be a non-fundamentalist interpretation, for example.

"there are no degrees of Islam going from fundemental to moderate to whatever you fancy in between, you either are or you aren't"

It's not about "degrees" as if one is more Muslim than the other.

It's about interpretation being possible. You seem to think that it is not. That one can't be a Muslim except through following a literal interpretation of the Quran, which is the definition of fundamentalism.

Christians managed to find a way not to insist that Earth is only 4000 years old, stop killing witches, etc. I have no doubt that Muslims will also find a way to stop insisting on the literal interpretation one day. Many already have.

"Tayyip Erdogan, never dresses like a "desert person", does this mean he's a moderate Muslim?"

He is an avid practitioner of taqiyya is what he is. He will look moderate until he doesn't have to.

No there is no if's and but's about alcohol there is no way to interperet the law agianst alcohol as bieng open to debate, its explicit coupled with the hadith there is n oroom for interpretation.

You either choose to drink against Islamic dietary rules or you don't.

Now the time it takes to be purified from alcohol consumption is open to debate you won't be able to pray when you've drunk alcohol so for a people who are meant to pray five times a day if you drink alcohol and then it takes you twenty four hours to be considered acceptable to pray (I can't remember the time actually but for the sake of argument say its twenty four hours), it's preventing you from observing a funedemental pillar of Islam. No Muslim is going to say yeah you can drink alcohol in Islam, the people I know say I'm not meant to but I do.

There's no such tihng as a fundamental Muslim, it makes people who want to create an other in us feel better about persecuting muslims.

"fundamentalist when used to refer to Muslims is an entirely negative term, so don't be facetious."

I'm not using it as a derogatory term, obviously. It is a word with a clear meaning. If there is another word that means "someone who strictly adheres to the literal interpretation of religious texts", let me know and I will use that word.

Pfft. Cote, I cannot be bothered going into tasfir, consensus of the ulema and other stuff with you now.

I find it very odd you are comparing banning alcohol with killing witches. There are so many, many benefits to not drinking. I absolutely agree with 2:219, that the harms of drinking and gambling outweigh their benefits.

Please stop with the tedious justifications for calling us fundamentalists. You do not get to label me or my religious practice. I am not going to be taking pointers in my religion from you anytime soon, so I would save your fingers the typing.

Cote so you drink and you want to be identify as a moderate muslim?

You can be whatever you want.

The rest of us are Muslim that is it. No fundamental mozlamics here.

I'm not comparing drinking to killing. Was that not obvious?

Bible says "Suffer not a witch to live". A fundamentalist Christian (i.e. one who follows the book literally) would be killing witches. But these days, they don't. Yet they are Christians.

Quran says cover your bosom with the cover that's already on your head. A fundamentalist Muslim (i.e. one who follows the book literally) would be covering head + bosom etc. But these days, many don't. Yet they are Muslims.

That is all I was saying.

"Muzlamic gun"

Thanks fuzzy but no, I'm not a believer of any religion or deity.

Cote, yet you say on many threads that were you to choose a religion, it would be islam.

Anyway, what is there for me to drink.....i dont like hot drinks!!!! Err, must be halal of course.....hope that doesnt make me a fundamentalist!! .

Cote - it is still an odd comparison. Again, what harm does not drinking do?

Also, the Bible is a very different text to the Quran.

The Quran is generally very simple indeed. 1 God, don't worship anyone else, heaven and hell exists, prayer, fasting and giving to charity are good. I would argue that the parts about not scoffing pork, drink, interest and gambling are fairly clear too. Also, do not kill your daughters and you are allowed divorce.

All the above are pretty indisputable, there is never going to be a pantheist interpretation of the Quran, is there?

However, then we come to the parts of the Quran and hadith (I know you have hadith issues, but we'll go past that for now) which deal with the wider social/societal laws.

In Islam, there is naql - the text and aql - reasoning - which is needed to implement the rulings. This has lead to there being an awful lot of leeway and a wide variety of opinions, with regards to many issues, more then people might realise.

You might find this an interesting read: feminismandreligion.com/2013/10/03/early-marriage-and-early-islam-by-amina-wadud/

The arguments she uses are firmly based in Islamic texts and Islamic history, yet she comes to a very different conclusion then certain others have.

I lurk here, I'm Christian with a Muslim DH and dc's. I like it, Islam is a part if my life and I enjoy reading about your lives. but I have to say this before I never post again. Cote you spoil for a fight or "discussion" whenever you post. here is a place where Muslims can chat about faith and life without being subject to every day stigma and prejudice, not having to justify their faith and the way they live their lives and you spoil it. the posters here deal with you with grace and understanding and you sneer. you make me so angry.

this is a great tearoom and I love lurking

It's always lovely to see more posters on here, try a spiced tea (very good for the current weather) .

Sis Optimist, the first time my eldest went to nursery I was in bits, she didn't even wait to take her coat off and rushed off inside without so much as wave goodbye!

When same child started reception at school I took my youngest with me to drop her off and as all the children went into class and I turned to leave my youngest (who was in a pushchair) started bellowing 'Nooooo Khadeeja is going to school, Khadeeja wants to go with Apa (big sister), turn around mummy turn around, naughty mummy, naughty mummy...'

Apparently both mine couldn't wait to get away from me!

Having said that we are very close and they have a general attitude that people are all lovely and just waiting to be friends with them (which bemusingly appears to be true).

I do play the Quran during the mornings we have surah Ya Seen on every morning, my girls do hifdh classes at school and because of the fact we listen to the Quran by expert reciters they recite beautifully mashallah, it also gives them a head start in tajweed class as they pronounce correctly to begin with.

Salaam all. Nativity season is fast approaching and i was thinking of pulling my dcs out of it. My reasons - i am uncomfortable to have them play a role of mary or joseph and have a doll depicted as baby jesus. I find it too disrespectful. These people have a status much higher than most, in my eyes. Therefore i feel very uncomfortable allowing my children to think that playing a part of mary, joseph or even a sheep in the story for just a bit of fun - in my opinion anyway.

I would much rather teach them about the miracle that is Jesus and the status of his virgin mother Mary in islam.

This is just my opinion, just wondering what other sisters tend to do?

Mine go to an Islamic school so I've not had to face that dilemma.

I do have very fond memories of my school nativities, I was the narrator and because I learnt the lines by heart I didn't read from a script (teacher was very proud!).

Do you think there's a chance they'll end up in the starring roles? Would you be OK with them being narrators or helping behind the scenes?

I loved being a part of the Christmas plays and the end of year plays.

crescent - Sorry I didn't understand what you mean by this: "Neo liberals would accuse u of practising taqiyyah just because your grandfather was a Muslim no matter how much u state your atheist credentials".

Re Erdogan - His taqiyyah has been slipping lately and even his former liberal supporters are now waking up. See this from Bloomberg.

Fuzzy, i cannot remember ever being in a nativity when i was young - and i know my parents would not have been too bothered by it, so wouldnt have opted me out, so to speak. I do have many fond memories as a child of dancing around christmas trees at school, taking part in christmas carols after school in old peoples homes, secret santa, sitting on santa's lap and wondering what pressie i will get, but no nativity. Having said that, i spent my early years in a different european country, not UK. So maybe nativity was not the done thing there.

Cote, i find it pointless arguing with you. Islam to me means submission to Allah, and though i fall short, in so many ways, i am not devout in any way, i cannot nor do i wish to change islam purely for my own whims and shortcomings. I just pray that i can be a better muslim in every way, especially as a role model for my children. To you be your way, to me mine.