The Muslim Tearoom

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Salam all. I'm feeling at the moment about something being shared on FB. It's comparing the Muslims who burned poppies and holding the banners saying "Kill British Soldiers" with a 15 year old girl who burned the Qur'an, saying that its unfair the girl got arrested for offending Muslims.

Should I post a reply? What would you say?

Walaikumasslaam, this is one of the reasons I'm no longer on fb, I suggest you ignore and not give them the oxygen, you will never persuade them they're wrong.

She's been arrested so the authorities are at least taking it seriously.

Hello, I'm very sorry to barge in her but I really need some advice from you. I've started a thread in chat so as to not derail your tearoom. I hope you can help me. Thank you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1907987-Muslim-Mners-I-need-your-help-please-my-friend-has-lost-one-of-her-premature-twins

Assalamualaikum sis Crescent, yes I do want to go to the GPU, except we all have the lurgy and my eldest gets quite ill as she has asthma.

Can I ask a massive favour, my eldest has been attended to sit an entrance exam for our first choice of secondary school alhumdulillah, Ihave no doubt she will pass inshallah but need duas that Allah grants us whatever is best for this life and the hereafter and that he make it easy on us inshallah.

Fizzogg have posted on your thread, you sound like a lovely and caring friend offer your friend support as you would any other friend I'm sure she will be grateful for your love and kindness at such a difficult time.

attended, Invited I mean!

Hi all - Just thought I'd answer Swish on this:

"am now very confused about the Turkish beliefs on Islam... Surely if you visit a Muslim country, you should expect to see Islamic culture and traditions? Out of the staff working at the hotel, about 90% drank alcohol and only about 25% followed Ramadan this year "

I guess the distinction is between a Muslim country and a country with a Muslim majority. Most countries with Muslim majorities have Muslim states that mandate behaviour - women have to cover, nobody can drink alcohol because none is on sale, etc. So your surprise is understandable, because it is so unusual for Muslims to have this sort of freedom to choose

Turkey is not such a place yet. People have the right to interpret the Quran and make their own choices for the time being, but quite possibly not for very long . Alcohol is frowned upon in the Bible as well, but most people drink alcohol in the UK. Has that ever shocked you, the UK being a Christian country and all? And if not, why not?

Cote - I'm interested as to where you get the "most" as in most Muslim majority countries from. I can only think of Iran, Saudi and Afghanistan that have rules making women cover. Covering may be seen as a cultural norm in other countries, but that's not the same as there being laws enforcing it.

Most Muslim majority countries do permit the sale of alcohol, although it might be more restricted then in some European countries. Here is a list of countries where alcohol is banned: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_alcohol_prohibition they are Muslim countries, but definitely not enough to be considered as most Muslim countries, either by number, or by population.

So in short, it is absolutely not unusual for Muslims to have that freedom to choose.

Salamalaykum sisters

How are you all doing? Subhanallah it has been a long time since I posted (at least in my mind) but I have been lurking about. I have been super busy the past month. I started a new job and had to find a nursery for my son . I cried the whole morning the first day I took him. I felt so guilty leaving him with someone I dont know. But surprisingly he didn't shed one tear for me. Figures. Any one else have funny stories about the first time they put their little ones in childcare. Has any one else noticed the many parenting talks going on these days? Its become the new in thing. Last month there were two on in London within a very short space of time. I think they are trying to tap in to the sisters market to be honest but I cant listen to any talks about parenting by men. I just think hah! Bring us your wife and let us hear if you do this stuff at home before you start lecturing me. But I enjoy listening to parenting talks by muslim women. I saw this website the other day:

www.ummuka.com/default.asp

which is sort of a consultancy/advisory service and parenting forum especially for muslim mums. Looks interesting. My ds is still a baby but I still feel like I should be doing some sort of tarbiyyah with him. But what? I do pray in front of him and he has started copying me doing sujud at the same time. Im trying to get him to say Allah as well but to no avail so far (comes out Agga). When did you introduce these things to your children and when did they start saying Allah?

I am desperate to go to GPU this year. I amazingly have never been. Something has always been going on in my life at the same time as it which has prevented me from going but after going to the halal food festival I decided I need to go to these large muslim gatherings more often. Its so beautiful to go meet so many muslims and see all the muslim families especially all the mixed families. Im so soppy now I even Ahh over the newly married looking young couples. I dont know why Im such an auntie gee. I have had similar experiences to you Swish and Ummshi. I moved to an area where there are fewer muslims and Ive just found it very hard to penetrate the tight knit cliches of cousins, distant relatives and long term family friendship groups. It definitely has an impact on your imaan to feel so isolated. I keep telling myself I will start a study circle in my area but havent managed to so far (I dont know enough people ) but Im hoping one day it will happen. Anyway lovely to drop in for a cuppa but I will have to make mine a takeaway as I am desperate to get some shuteye whilst my ds is sleeping. Tomorrow it will be full speed as usual.

Love you all for the sake of Allah (I know Im a soppy sod).

is it *cliques?

Gosh - re "I can only think of Iran, Saudi and Afghanistan that have rules making women cover"

Really? How about Sudan?

"Most Muslim majority countries do permit the sale of alcohol"

Oh sure, to tourists & foreign residents. In hotels where foreigners go, for example. How many Muslim countries have bars & clubs where locals can drink the night away, and local women & local men can dance together?

"Here is a list of countries where alcohol is banned"

That Wikipedia page is limited to total ban. We are talking about Muslim locals in a Muslim country being able to drink alcohol if they so wish.

Dubai isn't on your little list, for example. Do you think Muslim locals can go and drink alcohol if they want to?

Anyway, no need for any of these details. The mere fact that Swish was shocked that Turks were not covering, not fasting, and mostly drinking alcohol is enough to show that this kind of freedom is very rare in the Muslim world. If Muslims had this freedom to choose everywhere, the freedom to not observe such practices would not have been so conspicuous.

"no need for any of these details"

You mean facts.

No, one person's anecdote on the internet does not back up your assumptions of the entire Muslim world. Come off it, that's a ridiculous statement and you know it.

I've visited several Muslim majority countries and they all have alcohol available for sale to the general population. Does my anecdote beat Swish's, or is it the wrong sort of anecdote for you?

Yes, facts you were wrong about, Gosh. If you insist. I was being magnanimous when I said "details... they don't matter"

Your anecdote is valid and so is Swish's. My point was that she is shocked that pretty much everyone drinks alcohol in Turkey & many don't fast because this sort of freedom is rare in the Muslim world. If it were not, she would presumably be used to the idea of moderate Muslims not necessarily following everyday commandments of the religion, like in Christian countries.

'Moderate Muslims' no people who do not adhere to the five pillars of Islam and blatantly go against the clear instruction in the Quran regarding dietary rules are not 'moderate Muslims' they are non practicing & identify as Muslims thro their heritage not their practice of Islam.

Cote - Saying most Muslim majority countries don't enforce hijab - still true. 3+1 countries does not equal most.

Most Muslim majority countries don't have rules forbidding alcohol consumption, so that's not a "rare freedom" anyway.

Also, I think you mistake Swish's reaction, I suspect she's not confused (that was her word, not shocked) because she's not used to seeing "freedom in the Muslim world", but shocked at large numbers of Muslims not being bothered to follow their religion.

That's a bit harsh imho. You don't know what's in people's hearts and all that.

I used the word "moderate" as opposed to "fundamentalist" - i.e. someone who follows a literal interpretation of religious texts. Hard as it may be to believe for some here, it is entirely possible for a woman who doesn't cover her head to be a devout Muslim. Like my late grandmother, for example.

It was an interpretation agreed upon by my late grandfather. He was deeply religious and did the Hajj but dressed up in modern Western clothes rather than like desert people from 1400 years ago. He didn't have a beard. He believed that the important stuff is inside a person, not on the outside.

"shocked at large numbers of Muslims not being bothered to follow their religion"

If you asked those people, I bet most of them would call themselves Muslim and say they believe.

You and most others on this thread are fundamentalist Muslims (i.e. following a literal interpretation of religious texts) and that's fine. What is not fine and a bit sad is that you are actually saying that non-fundamentalists are not Muslims.

It is possible to be Christian and not kill witches, homosexuals & zoophiliacs. In fact, most don't try to in this day and age (thankfully).

Similarly, it is possible to be a Muslim and not subscribe to a literal interpretation of Quran & hadith.

No Cote, you do not get to label us willy-nilly.

Fuzzy mentioned the 5 pillars. As you well know, that's belief, prayer, fasting, zakat and hajj - No dressing like a "desert person" required. Clothing of any kind, or beards, are not a pillar of Islam and no one here has stated otherwise.

To make out that following the basic five pillars of Islam is somehow fundamentalist and extreme is ludicrous and dangerous.

Nobody said on here that a woman who does not wear a headscarf or a man who does not grow his beard is not a muslim or not practicing.

Someone who drinks (it is pretty explicitly frobidden in the Quran and the Hadith), someone who does not pray either salat or quran, who does not give in charity, who does not fast during ramadan, who does not wish to make pilgrimage nor try, well they're not a practicing Muslim are they?

I'm a Muslim, its my identity as a woman who practices Islam, there are no degrees of Islam going from fundemental to moderate to whatever you fancy in between, you either are or you aren't, the Prophet (saw) did not grade us up and down the spectrum. If you say you're Muslim you are, if you do not follow the tenets of Islam you aren't actually practicing the religion so you're not in fact a moderate Muslim you are not a practicing Muslim.

I'm sure one can be devout and terribly pious and all that but the moderate and fundamental rubbish is stigma against us to make us fear eachother.

I totally agree I have no idea what is in anyones heart and I do not profess to do so.

A person who does not practice Islam but professes to be a Muslim is a non practicing Muslim who identifies being a Muslim from their heritage.

"Label us willy-nilly"

Are you denying that you are a fundamentalist Muslim? In the correct, dictionary meaning of the term - i.e. someone who follows a literal interpretation of her religion's sacred texts.

I was talking about "literal interpretation" and not only of the 5 pillars of Islam, but anyway. So you say that anyone who doesn't do the 5 pillars isn't a Muslim? Like my late grandmother who didn't do the Hajj, you mean How many people do you know who have actually done the Hajj and are you really sure that the rest are not real Muslims?

Cote, you know full well that fundamentalist when used to refer to Muslims is an entirely negative term, so don't be facetious.

Also, considering that you are oh so very well versed in Islam, I didn't think I would have to spell it out, that Hajj is for those who are able, there may be many, many Muslims who are never able to do Hajj for a huge number of reasons, so no, I wouldn't judge someone who had not been on Hajj, I don't know any Muslims who would. Completing Hajj is seen as a great honor and blessing, rather than not going on Hajj being seen as a deficit.

P.S Tayyip Erdogan, never dresses like a "desert person", does this mean he's a moderate Muslim?