I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

Amillionyears

I love the way you say "the odds of something happening can not be down to statistics" when the term "the odds" is a statistical term that you are misusing.

You also seem to have misunderstood evolution. Medical science has nothing to do with evolution and my discussion was to do with how pattern spotting traits were passed to human beings through the process evolution and not to do with our medical survival rates in the modern world.

Please re-read my posts and respond with a relevant comment. I do not wish to be rude, but you have ignored or misunderstood everything I have written!

sorry technodad,I knew I didnt understand some of it,it appears I dont understand any of it.In which case,I cant reply to your posts as my knowledge is absent on those subjects.

Change answered to granted. Now answer my question.

Okay.I think what you are saying is,why are there not many miracles being performed today.
I think there are some,and again they happen to Christians by often private prayer.

There are not many miracles that are visible.
I suppose part of the reason for that,is because
a.they wouldnt be seen as a miracal anyway,If the little girl you were talking about,got cured,would you have called it a miracle?I guess you wouldnt.you and thousands of others would have said that the medical profession did it.So God wouldnt have got the credit.
b.a miracle like the feeding of the five thousand.No not much of that happening that I am aware of.Loads of miracles in the 3 years or whatever that Jesus was doing them.Quite a lot or indeed many in the Old Testament.Fewer in the New Testament as far as I am aware.I dont know the answer why.Maybe people generally are not so religious as they were.There may not be so many dedicated Christians as there were,even from 50 years ago.Not in Great Britain as far as I know.

if you pray,God will answer it in probably about 1 of a hundred different ways

So are you saying that God's answers look pretty random from a human pov?

In other words, that God is exactly the same as nature: things happen, we don't understand why, we just know that's the way it had to end.

If that's what you mean, then the only difference between us is you believe the random outcomes are part of A Plan - and I don't.

Sorry, that was to amillion's point about God's mystery answers.

There was another discussion a little while ago about whether god intervenes, and it went the same way as this:

God answers prayers - so why does he answer some and not others? He does answer he just doesn't always say yes - so why does shit happen if he loves us? Because we have free will - so why does he let us suffer? Because he has a plan for us - right, so he has a plan we can't change AND free will?

And on and on goes the circular reasoning. I wonder if a lot of the time the affrontary is just something to hide behind to avoid giving a straight answer to a straight question. Good luck with getting a straight answer seeker.

garlic,no they dont look random.They can be surprising sometimes.
Id say 19 out of 20 are answered in the way I would expect.But you do get the odd 1,that you thought would go 1 way,but actually goes another.

And that 1,2 out of 3 times,you find out why a few days later,when it makes sense,and you can see the reason for it,but the other time,you dont know.
I personally ,recently found out the reason for having to wait for something to happen about a prayer,a whole year later.And then it made perfect sense.

RedMolly,oh we can change the plan,but it wont have good long term outcomes.There used to be,and thinking about it ,actually are,some vicars/pastors/preachers etc,who go off the rails so to speak.They and all Christians have choices all the time,as much and many as anyone else.
And millions of Christians too,over the centuries who,for whatever reason have chosen to leave the path or plan.Some get back on,some dont ever again.

Amillionyears

Here lies the problem. You don't understand statistics, and you don't understand evolution (and seem uninterested in trying to understand them), but you can make up you own view from your imagination which are not based upon any data or evidence and for some reason we are supposed to respect your view.

The reason there are less things classed as miracles these days is because science and modern knowledge mean that we can understand why events happen rather than just having to guess.

We also have accurate methods of recording events (photos, videos, (relatively) unbiased press, etc) and so it is far less likely that someone can claim that the 5000 were fed, write it down it a book an have a bunch of unquestioning sheep believe it word for word (then murder people that don't agree with them). .

There are 7 billion people on the planet (because someone with scientific knowledge worked out how to fix nitrogen and create high yield crop production), are you seriously suggesting there are fewer Christians now than there was when Christ died on the cross (AFTER a lot of these so-called miracles occurred)?

Also amillionyears

You keep saying about these prayers that are answered every day where 19 out of 20 are answered clearly. Well can you give some examples of the sort of things that you pray about (if it is not too personal for you).

technodad,I said dedicated Christians,not fewer.There is a huge difference in meaning between the two.What I mean is that preachers,prophets,Christian healers etc are higher up in the Christian world as far as I know,than ordinary Christians.Someone else can probably put that into better words than I can.

My personal prayers can be anything and everything.And yes,the "can I have a parking space available please when I have to unload my kids in the rain",all the way to "can you heal a younger person I know who has had a stroke please".I personally believe he is interested in the mundane and the extraordinary.He is said to know how many hairs we have on our heads,so I consider He can cope with everything.

amillion

Can I give you another analogy?

Let's say I was hoping for a pay rise and I decided to pray. A Christian tells me that God WILL answer and it will be yes, no, or wait. So I pray. And God does apparently answer my prayer because God cannot lose, can he?

There are only three possible outcomes to my prayer - I get my pay rise, I don't get my pay rise, my boss tells me maybe next year or whatever. So WHATEVER happens, God has answered my prayer. God cannot lose.

I would get exactly the same result if I chose to pray to a milk bottle. The three possible outcomes would be the same & one of them would come true - so would you accept that the milk bottle has answered my prayer? I would get one of the same three outcomes praying to a hamster, lamp post or sauce pan.

A miracle, by definition, is a supernatural event. Something that happens for which there exists no natural explanation. Everything, absolutely everything, that has ever been presented to us as a miracle does actually have an entirely natural explanation. People do win the lottery, recover from serious illness, get pay rises etc etc.

God appears unable, or unwilling, to do anything that the natural world could not accomplish all by itself. We do not see decapitated people re-growing their heads. Or people who have been dead for two weeks coming back to life. Why not? God could do anything yet he ONLY chooses to do things that we don't actually need him for.

Don't think anyone can 'win' on this thread. Atheists can't prove he doesn't exist and Christians cannot prove he does.

I respect both views. I am a Christian but happy to admit to being a flaky one beset with many doubts and seekers OP would encapsulate the sort of doubt/question I have frequently.

However I still believe. Grasping at straws ? I dunno but something gives me faith and a sensation that he does exist and care about me. I don't have blind faith or believe that pray ...and it will all be alright. I do think a prayer gives me strength and I'd liken it to having a friend on the phone to talk to when going through a difficult moment. Could be mumbo jumbo or a sop to my weakness but whatever there is something. It's also fairly unchanging and reliable

Don't really understand it all myself but it is a positive thing in my life.

It doesn't make me do irrational things. I function as a normal person, don't feel especially protected or 'more special' than the next person. I'm quite humble and think my life will follow a path affected by many factors. I don't feel the need to convert and often find a lot of 'professed christians' quite irritating in their behaviour.
The more they profess the worse they seem to irritate me tbh

Can I defend my viewpoint? Nah. I'm sticking to it though because it's a good thing for me personally

"Can you heal this younger person of a stroke please, God".

Yes, no, maybe says God.

The person dies. God has said no.

The person recovers. God has said yes.

The person does not die but has serious brain damage. God has said maybe.

God has answered your prayer (according to you) whatever happens. God cannot lose.

Have you ever asked God for something that you know is impossible? Please give me wings, today God, I feel like flying to the supermarket? This should be no problem for a God who can do anything. But you don't ask for such things - you KNOW impossible things never happen. You are already accepting that your God can only do normal stuff. Why?

"Atheists can't prove he doesn't exist". I beg to differ. The Christian God has already been proven not to exist beyond any reasonable doubt. (Allowing for the inescapable fact that nothing outside of mathematics can be proven with 100% certainty).

There are some really lovely jehova's witnesses around my way. I always have a little chat with them; it always goes the same. I explain my bit about the magnificent universe. They appreciate that, and say they feel just the same only they reckon god's behind it all. I say that if you follow both our reasoning to the very beginning, we're both left with the same question: where did the first particle come from = where did god come from? Haha, they say, that's true, but don't you wish you had the comfort of prayer?

At this point I notice the child hanging off my reply. I'm trying to train my cat to distract jehova's children! I don't want to undermine the nice witness's parenting, so I don't say it's a load of wishful thinking crap. Instead I say my bit about prayer being the same as meditation, and that I feel it's valuable.

Then they leave. They always get the last word: they say "This universe is amazing, and God made it that way." I reply: "You believe," and they say "He made it."

You get stuck, don't you? It is faith, which means belief that is not based on proof. I tend not to believe made-up stories. It feels odd to be told I'm wrong for basing my beliefs on proof! I do feel the faithful have less respect for atheists than the other way around - in fact, lots of them believe we will suffer untold misery in an afterlife. That's not terribly respectful! I've never wanted a religious person to suffer for their beliefs, but they don't think twice about wishing suffering on me.

the difference for a Christian praying to God and not to the milk bottle,hamster or what ever is you would get the answer that is best for your life.

One of the best bible verses in the whole bible imo,is the one that says "All things work together for good for those that love God".

People and children do sometimes recover by Christians praying and God saying yes.

Gosh,now there are 4 more posts!

Thank goodness you're here, TT, it's not fair on amillionyears to have to answer all the posts!

amillionyears

I said dedicated Christians,not fewer.There is a huge difference in meaning between the two.What I mean is that preachers,prophets,Christian healers etc are higher up in the Christian world as far as I know,than ordinary Christians.Someone else can probably put that into better words than I can.

But what is your theory based upon? How do you plan to demonstrate it? Where is your evidence that a Christian Healer is "higher up" in the Christian world and that their influence is stronger than that of "normal" people? Are you sure you haven't just made this up?

If the number of high order Christians is ever decreasing (because of evil modern society), then there are never going to be any big miracles in the future, therefore it seems that all god is good for is for getting peoples parking spaces booked when it is raining!

My personal prayers can be anything and everything.And yes,the "can I have a parking space available please when I have to unload my kids in the rain",all the way to "can you heal a younger person I know who has had a stroke please".I personally believe he is interested in the mundane and the extraordinary.He is said to know how many hairs we have on our heads,so I consider He can cope with everything.

So why on earth is god intervening in your car parking and why has this got noting at all to do with statistics? This is one of the move preposterous suggestions I have ever heard! Statistical analysis will take the number of car park spaces, and the number of shoppers likely to be visiting the store at that time of the day, adjust for the fact that it is raining and more people with take their cars, and will work out the likelihood of their being a spare space for you within a set range from the door. If this turns out to be 1 in 1.0000001 (because it is an enormous car park, or it is midnight and there are no shoppers), then you are highly likely to have a space. If it is 1:10000, but you get a space, then you have been very lucky. The idea that a god had time to ignore terminally ill children to keep your hairstyle looking nice sick!

The same argument applies to a stroke victim. There are people in the world who are not Christian (and do not live in a Christian society), but who recover, there are some who die. Assuming the medical care is equal for Christian and non-Christian groups, then the statistical likelihood of survival of both people is going to be identical (this is provable with data and is therefore a FACT). Just because you prayed for this person, does not change the statistics for them as an individual.

Are you in any way willing to accept these factual points, or just continue to ignore them?

seeking is very important.Seek and you will find.
Doesnt matter if you have to seek for 30 years,and it is 2 steps forward,1 step back.You will still get there.

What is impossible for man is possible for God or somesuch the bible says.

well i dont think so too, if they is a god why do innocent ppl have to die .just lost a good friend of mincd to cancer 44 whith a lil dd with sn ,she does not even know or will ever remember her mother

Soem Christians think Jehovahs witnesses are a sort of cult.I dont know enough about them to say one way or another.