I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

Ok. Give me an example of a prayer that has been answered at any time that required divine intervention.

you lot are brainier than I am.Sorry,garlicnuts I dont understand that question either.

seeker,I dont think any prayer "requires" divine intervention.
prayers are "requests" as far as I know,which I have already said.

That's very Christian-centric of you, amillion. I had assumed we were discussing god in general, not the Christian god specifically. Funny how people who live in a Christian society don't tend to think outside the box of their own religion.

Those of you who are practising Christians - have you actually really studied other religions, or just accepted the default that you were born into as the correct religion without question, for no reason other than that you were brought up believing it's the 'right' one? Do you realise that people born into other religions feel exactly the same way?

Oh dear, amillion, sorry.

I can give you an example, seeker! Vicar who won the jackpot on the only lottery ticket he ever bought, having fervently prayed for a win to fund his church repairs :)

For rational explanation, see technodad's recent post on statistics. Lots of people pray their ticket will win, so the odds on the winner having prayed are good. More than one of those will be a vicar, so the odds are further improved when you only look at winners who prayed and were vicars.

I thought it a very sweet story, and was happy for him!

Good point Annie.I dont know the answer to that.I have asked myself the same question.

Did that really happen,garlicnuts.

I imagine some Christians might get a yes answer to their prayers 5 times a day.So it would be hard to put that down to chance,if that is what you are trying to say.

Sad but sane seeker. Really interesting debate. So sorry for your loss op

I think people are still getting muddled up between curing which is what people do and healing which is what God does. Healing is not about miracles and making people better but helping them through tough times and helping them move towards peace.

As I see it, death is not a bad thing to God, because people get to go to some other place, whatever you want to call it. Suffering is purely human and God lets us get on with it because to meddle in it would be change everything. There would be no free will or autonomy, we wouldn't be the conscious beings we are now. We would be no more than puppets which can't be good, no matter what you believe. At what point would God step in if he were to prevent suffering? Just before death, when somebody gets diagnosed and asks for it? Before people get even get ill? What about minor causes of suffering like a cold or a sprained ankle? When does suffereing get serious enough that God is supposed to step in? Would you expect a perfect life and never to get them? Would that not change the whole of the human race into something completely different, something that has no conscious thought?

Not sure how I always end up sticking up for God when actually I am firmly on the fence and an a dyed in the wool agnostic but I don't get that idea that if there is a God, he 'allows' suffering.

Not that any God needs me sticking up for him. I suppose I dislike the sweeping generalisations which are made by both sides but find it harder to accept from the atheist point of view since they are so sure of their logic and their complete reliance on science that they are completely unable to see that another view may even be possible. IME those with faith, on these threads at least, tend to accept that others have a different view and let them get on with it, knowing that they can't win against logic and science even if in reality logic and science are nowhere near providing all the answers.

So as usual, the question is dodged. I rest my case.

But the Christian god obviously doesn't have a problem meddling with death and disease. In the gospel of Mark Jesus says: 'these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15-18)

This was his parting shot to his believers just before he headed home. Nothing about god not meddling there. Seems a promise of the opposite but where is the evidence for this? If this sort of gubbins was actually happening it would be all over main stream media and scientists would have some good evidence for it and they don't. Not even one tiny shred.

Metaphorical demons and serpents, homeopathic poison and any sickness so long as it is a bad back or a vague feeing of unease. Not sure about the new tongues, though.

BigBoobiedBertha said: IME those with faith, on these threads at least, tend to accept that others have a different view and let them get on with it, knowing that they can't win against logic and science even if in reality logic and science are nowhere near providing all the answers.

This exactly defines the difference between the two approaches. Logic and Science just addresses what it knows as a fact (it also creates theories and then tests these theories to provide data to prove them, at which point they themselves become facts). When logic and science can not answer a question, it doesn't just make stuff up out of thin air, it freely admits to the lack of knowledge.

Does science understand how the brain works and what causes consciousness? - "NO".

However Science doesn't then turn round and say - "Well, since we don't yet know what causes consciousness, lets tell everyone that it is because of the Great Snot Goat Monster and then scare the life out of society by telling everyone that if they don't pray to the GSGM then they will go to hell, and while we are at it men are better than women, and we should stone some women to death in the name of the GSGM for no valid reason (hmm, lets make sure we abuse our new power while we are at it)!"

Science just says - "We currently don't know what causes consciousness, but here are our leading theories, which we are tirelessly testing until we can get enough data to prove one of them as a fact".

i dont understand about half of the last few posts.
Seeker,as you are the op,what do you think is being dodged.
And can I ask,do you think you are seeking?Or are you sort of seeking and blocking at the same time.It may be worth you not blocking if that is what you are doing.I know that can be scary.

The question that is being dodged is why god only appears to say yes to prayers that ask for things that don't need divine intervention. Any prayer that actually needs god like powers is never granted.

Can I have examples of the first sentence please?
In the second sentence I presume you are alluding to the little girl.But we wouldnt know about say 100 little girls that God may have chosen in hospitals today,that were prayed for,and God said yes to cure or heal,or not make it so bad or whatever would we?Because most prayers are private,behind closed doors so to speak.

I think I am right in saying that prayer by Christians is supposed to be continous,so a Christian may pray 100 prayers per day.

amillionyears said I imagine some Christians might get a yes answer to their prayers 5 times a day.So it would be hard to put that down to chance,if that is what you are trying to say.

I am an atheist (which you might have already guessed), and if I want something nice to happen, I often think to myself "I hope this nice thing happens" (silly I know, I can't help it).

I sometimes sit at home thinking, "I wonder how my sister is", and the at that moment the phone rings and she has called me! This doesn't mean that a prayer has been answered, it means that I think about her quite a lot, and she calls sometimes, and on this occasion the two events happened at the same time (because it is statistically likely)!

Statistically, it would FAR more amazing if these two events never happened at the same time in my life. However, for the 999 in a 1000 times when I think of her, she doesn't call, I don't sit there thinking "hmmmm, that is another wish that hasn't happened", but for some reason it seems a surprise when they align.

If your example of people having prayers answered 5 times a day are things like: 1) Win the lottery, 2) Family member gets cured of illness, 3) Friend with brain damage gets 6 A's in her exams after only studying for 2 weeks, 4) Child walks at the age of 3 months, 5) I ran 20 miles with a broken leg; then I would agree, this is statistically VERY VERY unlikely and this could be good evidence for pray working. However if these are little things like my telephone call example (which happened to me yesterday), then you are unquestionably misunderstanding statistics. Also, I am amazed that god has got time to make my sister call me, but doesn't have time to save a sick child - god must be pretty crass.

The human brain is designed to spot patterns in the world. You see some stripes in the grass and you think - AHHHH TIGER, run! 99.9% of the time it probably isn't a tiger, but the fact you ran means that you survive on the 0.1% of the times when it is a tiger.

The irony is, that the whole reason why we have religion in the world (many of which do not agree with evolution), is directly because of the fact that evolution is all about survival of the fittest. The animals that didn't spot a pattern out of nothing and run from the imaginary tiger did not survive, and therefore those poor pattern matching brain characteristics were not passed to the next generation (making the species stronger)! This is what happened to the Dodo, which evolved in an environment where there were no natural predators (so it didn't need to spot potential threats) when humans turned up feeling a little peckish!

And your comment that prayer is continuous fully supports my statistical argument above.

If I am continually praying, then it is statistically very likely that some things will happen.

If I am playing a board game and pray for a 6 when I roll the die, there is a 1 in 6 chance that my prayer will be answered. This does not mean that there is a god, because there is always a 1 in 6 chance of anyone rolling the number they are thinking of at that time!

Thinking of my sister and her calling might be a 1 in 10000 chance, but this will still happen once every 3 years (on average), and doesn't mean it can't happen two weeks in a row!

You also need to think of statistical bias - my sister lives on the west coast of the USA and so we always call each other at fairly set times, and usually at the weekend. So at 10:00 on Saturday and Sunday, I always subconsciously think "I wonder how my sister is", thus shortening the odds massively!

technodad,yes I would agree that there are times randomly when two things match up like your sisters call.
And that animals may indeed run faster,be more arare etc than they used to be,because of survival of the fittest.Wouldnt personally say that about humans,because the medical profession are getting better and better at helping everyone.

But if God were to answer no to a prayer,that is still a prayer answered imo.

Ok. If somebody prays for their cat to come home, or for somebody to recover from.a serious but not fatal illness, the chances are the prayer will be answered.

If a person prays for somebody to recover from end stage lung cancer, or for a broken vase of huge sentimental value to be made while again, then their prayers will definitely not be answered, even though god could do it if he wanted to. Why?

Prayer is talking to God.Prayer is also praise.

I think that it is obvious if you were to do many prayers,that it cannot all be down to statisitcs.The odds of certain things happening in any one day,could not in any way shape of form,be just put down to statistics.

seeker,you are still using the word answered..I dont understand why you are still using that word.
Yes if you pray,God will answer it in probably about 1 of a hundred different ways.So if that is what you mean,then yes God does indeed answer prayer.

The second part.If a Christian prays,God answers in some way or another.I think you are meaning why does God not answer yes.
The answer to that is it is Gods choice.He can do whatever he chooses to do.Gods will,not ours.And He doesnt always tell us why or why not either.Which can be difficult and painful.

Yeah but amillion were talking about an evolutionary process that has spanned vast amounts of time, from the first living organism. Not just in the last 60 years.