I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

"All things work together for good for those that love God".

The many indigenous peoples who were converted by christian missionaries loved god - as the missionaries themselves so often said, "like little children", which is the perfect way to love god, isn't it? Yet they were slaughtered by disease and cruelty brought in, albeit unknowingly, by the missionaries. Their perfect conversion to christianity killed them. I don't think that was for anybody's good, do you?

the difference for a Christian praying to God and not to the milk bottle,hamster or what ever is you would get the answer that is best for your life.

There's no possible way you can know that. It's an assumption on your part that praying to god and praying to a milk bottle would get different results.

ilovesprouts - sorry for your loss.

amillionyears said: the difference for a Christian praying to God and not to the milk bottle,hamster or what ever is you would get the answer that is best for your life. - what a lot of nonsense. This doesn't address the question, you are merely regurgitating a baseless comment that you have been taught/read/made-up.

Poor little girl Her family must be going through unimaginable pain.

But God never says in the Bible that there's never going to be children taken too soon, or no cancer or other horrible disease, or unfairness. Personally, I do believe in God and that he has the right way planned for me and my family. So even the unfair, shitty bits that I don't want to go into here, are for a reason. It makes me feel better.

Amillion Sorry, don't mean to make you feel put upon :)

Could you tell us one single thing that could ONLY be achieved with Christianity & belief in God and not through secular means.

In other words - is there something that you as a Christian can do, with god on your side, that I as an atheist cannot?

JWs are okay, amillion :) They follow a literal interpretation of the bible, which leads to one or two problems in the 21st century, but are extremely sober and devout on the whole. They think I won't be saved, as do you. I don't think I'll be saved, either, so no dispute there!

Amillion the great commission was given to Jesus' followers and there seemed to be no suggestion that only 'top Christians' so to speak would be able to wield that sort of power. You also said that maybe there are less Christians today now which you thought might explain the lack of miracles in recent years but there is no evidence of any miracle at any time, ever. Not even in last 100 years. And further down the thread someone touched on the common Christian idea that god uses the NHS for miracles which contradicts the 'less miracles now' idea as more and more people survive disease and accidents via medical expertise.

All these reasonings are the sort of thing I used to do as a Christian. Come across something that makes god seem non existent? Simply tweak my beliefs a bit. And I did a lot of tweaking and adjusting and modifying, back and forth, never actually getting anywhere. I'd tell myself that god was full of love and compassion but then have to keep modifying the small (and large) print to justify why there is actually no evidence at all and no difference between the Christian god and no god.

slatternlymother - why does it make you feel better. What if the "right way" is for you and your family to die in a car crash tomorrow, how will this bring comfort? (I would say "I hope this doesn't happen" but my hoping won't change the statistical likelihood of this happening (but I do genuinely hope this doesn't happen though)).

I am taking a breather right now!
Will get back to you all later I hope.

Well technodad it just does. If we're all going to die in a car crash tomorrow, there's nothing I can do. If my biopsy comes back with bad news next month, and I have to have surgery to remove my womb, there's nothing I can do about that either. It's a bloody shame, but not a jot I can do.

Perhaps it's supposed to happen.

Slatternlymother - Well I for one am much happier that there is nothing controlling things with a plan to do-me-in without reason. Entropy and Chaos Theory are absolutely fine with me and comfort me sufficiently.

The problem with being a rationalist, is that I hate using sayings like "have a safe flight", "good luck" and "get well soon" because they are meaningless sayings which can't possibly influence the outcome of the event they refer to. Tim Minchen perports that he always says "I hope you crash" to his family when they get on a flight, to try and rid himself of his baseless superstitions. However, this approach does come across as somewhat harsh (especially when you say it to people you don't know).

So for what it is worth - I hope you get well soon.

I just re-read my last and it didn't read right at the end.

I meant to say:

"But for what it is worth - I hope you get well soon" rather than "So", because I genuinely do hope you get well soon.

technodad,you dont have to believe anything of what I post whatsoever,that is your choice and your belief.That is up to you.
Do you want me to try and give an answer to your particular posts,or would you rather i didnt.

ilovesprouts,my own answer upthread is I think it is random.Which is .My own dad lost his mother when he was 6 years old,so I understand a little bit.

The problem with being a rationalist, is that I hate using sayings like "have a safe flight", "good luck" and "get well soon" because they are meaningless sayings which can't possibly influence the outcome of the event they refer to.

But I say all of those things on the basis that I HOPE they do have a safe flight & get well soon. Same as I say "Have a nice time" or "Have a good day at school" to my DS. That's not really superstitious, is it?

"May God be with you" on the other hand.......

Seeker-You're assuming God would be the Judeo-Christian God. If He exists He could be anything.

garlicnuts,whatever makes you think you wont be saved.Or that I dont think you will be saved.I sincerely hope you are.And I will pray for you to be saved,if that is all right with you.

garlicnits,your post fo 17.43.The people who stick theri heads above the parapet in society so to speak,are often murdered for their beliefs.

And if the Christians are right, does that mean that every other religion that has ever existing is wrong?

Sikhs, Muslims, Ancient Greeks they all believe or believed in different things, so who is/was right?

And are people Christians because they've studied and made a considered decision or because of when and where they are born?

I'd love to believe, but I don't think I can.

amillionyears

I wasn't expecting you back that quickly , welcome back, I love a good debate.

Well, I suppose that what I would like is for and answer to be given that can be supported by some evidence.

Fundamentally, it comes down to this: There have been many religious people on this thread, of which many have a different view on many subjects. Taking just the question of "Does prayer work?" the various answers have been along the following lines:

• No, but the process of prayer gives comfort
• Yes, but it is random and sometimes it doesn't happen how you expect
• Yes, all the time it gives me parking spaces and does lots of small stuff
• Yes, it saves the lives of children and those who aren't saved die because their parents need spiritual development (this one shocked me somewhat if I am honest)
• Yes, but it is impossible to work out how, you just have to trust god to do the right thing
• Yes, it said so in an old book so it must be true

However, when an atheist gives a counter argument, we pretty much ALL state the same answer to any question, because we base our answers upon proven knowledge (science, maths, accurate documentation, etc).

So not only are there multiple religions (who disagree with each other), but within one religion you can't even agree how things work and say things that are shocking and disturbing to each other.

With this in mind, I want to know how a theist can justify their belief without using the word "trust", "belief", "love", or any other non-evidence description.

The litmus test for me, would be - If we were to go in a court of law to argue our respective cases, which case would win?

CrikeyOHare 17.47pm.I suppose the answer to your question is that God can do anything he wants,if he chooses.So if my prayer,or another Christians prayer matches his will,it will be done.But it is worth remembering that Gods will trumps our will just about always,if not always.

amillionyears said: I suppose the answer to your question is that God can do anything he wants,if he chooses.So if my prayer,or another Christians prayer matches his will,it will be done.

So, by that rationale, prayer doesn't achieve anything, because god will do what ever he (or she?) wants anyway. This is opposite to your earlier statement where you said that god answers your prayer for a parking space close to the supermarket door when it is raining (whilst allowing children to die). But why do you bother asking him if you know he will just do what he wants, it seems a little silly and pointless to me!

Which one is it?

I wish I could edit my post at 18:43.07 to add that individuals change their opinion on how prayer works from post to post too!

Thanks for coming back, amillion. I don't think I will be saved because, following scientific evidence, my death will be the end of me. I am not made of ethereal stuff - just atoms. I don't have spiritual powers or energies - just electricity. When I die, my cells will stop generating electricity and my body will be motionless: there'll be no "me" any more, just a decomposing conglomeration of atoms. These atoms will get absorbed by something else and, over time, will end up in millions of amazing places.

Please don't feel sad for me. I don't feel sad about this, just grateful to be conscious of my accidental life. Pray if you like :)

Lifeofprism.I dont know very much at all about other religions.

I think people become Christians in many many different ways.I am always surprised by how and why.I dont think there is a set pattern at all.Many,as far as I know,who have become Christians,have barely looked at a bible or sometimes even dont have one.

I think,for many Christians,belief comes very slowly,over a number of years.