I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

If I am amillion I'm a very poor witness! :)

Amillionyears

I don't pray EVER, but good, bad and indifferent things happen to me too. How is your scenario any different?

I am in no way searching for anything. I find your comment very patronising and it sounds like you are trying to convert me - you will not succeed. My view on eternal nothingness have not changes since I was a child, I am just able to understand it now and I am mature enough to be be happy with the reality.

It is interesting that you are logging your prayers. What do you hope to achieve by this (since if they succeed or fail you consider them to have worked). I still think it extremely crass that you think god has time to avert your "posh" visitors eyes but not to save starting children, can you not see how discussing this concept is?

The devil is a paradox amillion. If all things come from god then so did the devil. So, the evil that is the devil's evil is also gods evil. If god can overcome the devil and his works, then why is there still evil in the world?

The devil as we usually see him depicted is just a christianised representation of Pan, a pagan god. A pretty shameless attempt by the church to instill fear in people of something it wants to turn people away from.

headinhands 10.48
I ask,else I may not get.
If God wants him to,God will grant yes.I ,and no other Christian ever get to be in charge of God.

So sometimes God doesn't want to grant prayers? And if he does want to, he will anyway?

What sort of cloud-bound arse is more bothered about a posh visitor and some furniture than he is about famine, war and disease though?

technodad,I think I have answered those questions in full already.
It may be time for me not to post to you personally.

The. second paragraph.If you think God doesnt exist,then it is all rubbish to you anyway,so the question is meaningless.
If you think he does exist,what is your personal opinion on the matter.

What worries me is that those who do think he exists think it's perfectly fine for him to be bothered about mess but not murder.

I don't get all this 'God will provide stuff'. If there is a God, he clearly doesn't provide in a physical sense only as a spiritual support.

Somebody I know got into serious financial difficulties buying a house he couldn't afford because 'God will provide.' They used it for church work (taking in people in difficulty and renting them a room) but in the end they couldn't make ends meet despite thinking for a long time that God would get them out of their troubles. God was strangely silent when they had to sell their house and downsize.

My PIL are Christians (FIL a minister, MIL a lay preacher). They would never talk like that. God doesn't answer random prayers asking for things from their point of view. God is supportive and loving but does not interfer in the physical. He isn't going to pay your mortgage or get somebody a job or cure famine, he leaves that to people but gives them the support they need to do it. I can just about cope with that a concept for prayer but praying for all the answers doesn't work from where I am sitting.

But of course he is bothered about murder,rape,bullying and on and on and on.He grieves.He hurts.And he has seen all this since time began.

BBB,I will have to agree to differ with you on some of your points.

I think it is perhaps the time for me to leave the thread now.Thank you for listening,and I hope I have helped some people in some small ways.

Once again towel religious people disagreeing (bbb and amillionyears), demonstrating that it is all based upon opinion, but all the atheists are in harmony because dealing with facts and maths don't need interpretation.

I think that should be "two" not "towel", clearly someone is praying that god will interfere with my iPhone autocorrect. I always thought that Steve Jobs was a god....

Interestingly, Steve Jobs decided to delay medical treatment for a good few months because he believed that his spirituality, meditation and new age diet would cure his cancer. Very sad indeed. As he might still be around if he had taken proper treatment

BBB has said she no longer believes in God.

Facts are in the bible.The bible is very complicated.That is why,we as Christians read it for ourselves to make up our own minds.

Im pretty sure some of maths does have interpretations.Im pretty sure any group of atheists disagree on some points.

People need to read the bible to make up their own minds.Also,Alpha courses are good for beginniers I have heard,though I have never been.

We are all indiviuals,every single one of us,Christian or non Christians.And yes of course,Christians dont agree on every single point.

Perhaps I am back on the thread,perhaps not.

I will pray that every single one of you on here becomes a Christian at some point.Whoever doesnt want me to ,post on here or pm me.

technodad another example of christians disagreeing can be found over on the thread about demon possession. What occurs to me is that you have a christian on there espousing the popular christian belief that demons don't exist and that because they didn't understand about things like epilepsy/schizophrenia in those days the bible used those terms through ignorance. So Jesus was ignorant!? And how come Jesus actually spoke to the demons in one instance and they spoke back and he then ordered them out of the person they were in and into a group of pigs, and then the demons made the pigs run over a cliff and die? What bloody mental health problem was that??

Wouldn't it have been kinder for Jesus to say 'these people have an illness in their brain and they need your care' rather than further entrenching the notion of demon possession. Or if, as a christian, you believe that demon possesion can occur you try getting treatment on the nhs for it!! You can't have it both ways A fundemental literal bible believing christian's position is more tenable than the 99% who chop and change it.

Amillionyears

I find myself slightly torn.

I hate the idea of someone praying for me because it is utterly pointless. I also find the whole idea of you spending time trying to pray for me to become Christian, whilst you could be praying to save sick children utterly sick.

On the flip side, the idea of you wasting your time on me is quite funny - so fill your boots.

You go for it amillion, fill your boots. If I doesn't work in my case does that mean god didn't want me to be a christian?

As for your snooty friend: maybe it is god's plan for her to notice your less than perfect furniture and by doing so be reminded of the fallen nature of mans existence and that ever present god shaped hole? I assume that if she does notice it you then have to assume it was gods will for her to notice it? That there would be a point to her noticing it.

Oi techno fill your boots is my expression!

Amillion - i'm glad you haven't gone away completely. I don't think most of the atheists on here are non believers out of ignorance of the bible. Quite a few have said that they used to have faith so they are rejecting god in full knowledge of what the bible says (me included); the bible simply doesn't carry any authority if you don't believe in god. I know the argument is quite one sided, and fair play to you for standing up for your beliefs - i respect you far more for that than those who just get sniffy at having their views challenged. It doesn't mean i agree with you btw! I like these threads because i like to try and understand how people think, how you can maintain belief in face of the evidence, and if a few people start to examine their faith as a result then i think that is a good thing. You know how ex smokers are supposed to be more militant than those who have never smoked? I think it is like that with religion as well.

I have never believed in God, not as an adult anyway (children believe in anything and everything for a while). I think Jesus existed but whether he was the Son of God (unlikely if you don't believe there is a God), a charismatic and gifted leader with a good heart or a fraud is a matter for debate. I suppose I don't see him as a fraudster as he seemed to gain nothing from his time on earth except a gruesome death and world wide fame for 2000 years. Not much use if you're dead though.

There are no facts about atheism because there is nothing to believe surely? Not difficult for atheists to agree when you only have one point to agree on. Not very much up for discussion there is there? You can't prove there is no God, as you have said many times before, you just don't believe the evidence of the other side (believers) because it doesn't conform to your individual criteria for evidence.

I have an opinion on how prayer works based on the rational explanation of what is possible. Clearly the interventionist God can't exist as he doesn't intervene when he is needed. Therefore if there is a God the power of prayer must come in providing psychological support and comfort to those who are struggling. (My PIL would agree with this) You will find many stories of people who have felt supported by God I am sure but they have psychological support. You could get the same from meditation (my PIL wouldn't agree with this) or just feeling that people are on your side which they would be if you have people praying for you. Whether they got the outcome of their prayers will be down to earthly matters not a God although I am sure a true believer will write it off their disappointments as God deciding. He doesn't. He can't if he isn't some awful creature that nobody in their right mind would believe in.

The bible is a set of stories and a code to live by but it is told and written by humans over hundred of years and translated many times. As a means of focussing your mind on the good (stick to the New Testament for that one) or controlling the masses (look at the Old Testament for that) it works. It is too flawed to be the the true Word of any God though.

I wish I knew either way with the certainty that some of you have but I don't. Neither extreme makes any logical sense because both have too many unanswered questions.

Thats my take on it all which I only put down as everybody seems to have a view what I believe even though none of you seem to have it right.

Oh and I have done Alpha. It didn't make me believe in anything but it was good to have a discussion about the issues. We weren't force fed the view of Nicky Gumble though. I was lucky that the place I did it were very open minded and weren't trying to convert anybody just share the Good News.

'I will pray that every single one of you on here becomes a Christian at some point.Whoever doesnt want me to ,post on here or pm me. '

Don't bother praying for me.

No me neither unless you can make God appear in front of me. Probably then I would just think I was having some sort of breakdown though so maybe not even then.