I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

headinhands 12.42pm You use a young child situation.No,the child would not be expected or asked to say sorry for falling over,but they would be expected or say sorry for eg,pulling their sisters hair,as long as they were old enough to understand that that was the wrong thing to do.
It is actually a very good comparison.When Christians are new Chritistians they are baby Christians as it were.We are indeed told in the bible that we are first on milk,and then later on move onto solid food.

Yes.God did ask for the sacrifice of animals in the Old testament.
God made animals lower than us.I personally dont know why he wanted the sacrifice of animals.
The New testament supercedes much of what is in the Old Testament,so putting animals on a BBQ is not required or wanted nowadays!

technodad,do you read the bible from time to time?
A couple of verses most days can be enough.

Havent got time right now to look at what you suggested looking at .Will try in the next few days.

RedMolly 11.51am
A very personal answer from me.I hesitiate to write it,but in for a penny,in for a pound.
I think God adds thoughts into my own thought process.

I would say that,on the whole Chrisitans have an easier life than non Christians.I dont think that so many horrible things happen to us.I think of it as being ring fenced.We are ring fenced,and the stuff that gets in has been allowed in by God.

not read the whole thread, but re the OP now that doesn't disprove it to me

when someone close to me was critically ill, the religious people who were praying for them were not praying for them to LIVE! only for them to live if they would have a good quality of life or to die peacefully and quickly and without suffering if living (on paper - heart breathing) would cause more suffereing for them and us

We don't know what the alternaive is, sometimes death is not the worst case scenario. Just don't know what a deceased persons alternative longer life would have been had they not died and how much suffering there may have been in it, sometimes we trust that god knows this and chooses the lesser evil even if we never get a hint about what the greater evil would have been had they lived

I personally dont mind my posts being challenged and discussed.I dont have a personal problem with it.I dont know which other thread a poster is talking about.tbh,I havent got much time to look atm!

Thanks amillion. But how do you tell which are your own and which are from god?

What makes you think christians have an easier time? So many threads on here seem to be christian posters asking for prayers or other support to get through tragedies in their lives - god doesn't seem to have protected them. Another example if you like. I used to live next door to an abandoned graveyard. Virtually every grave was that of a child who had died in infancy, or a miner who had died in a pit accident. They were all good god-fearing folk for whom church (well, chapel in that instance) was at the centre of their lives. Don't think there was a single grave where the occupant had passed away peacefully in their sleep.

Hi amillionyears,

No I don't read a couple of passages from the bible a day, and I don't intend to at any time in my life. I do understand the irony of my asking others to listen to a statistics podcast when I am not willing to read the bible. But there is a big difference between being taught mathematics (a universal set of rules taught in schools across the entire world) and being taught someone's political opinion and attempt at societal control (of which no one agrees about).

You said: A couple of verses most days can be enough.
What exactly would reading a couple of verses a day be "enough" for?

On a side note (and I don't mean for this to be taken in the wrong way), please can you put spaces after your punctuation marks (commas and fullstops) so that the words don't run together, because your posts are very difficult to read without any spaces (sorry - I have dyslexia and so my brain doesn't pick out the words very easily without the spaces)

No wonder they needed the support of chapel and the community centred on it, hey RedMolly ? Times were hard, and they still can be for many.

I cant always tell.I do have ones where I definitely think,that one is from God.

The Christians I know,I would definitely say have had an easier time than the non Christians,almost entirely.I suppose I cant answer for the rest of Great Britain as a whole.
I have virtually never looked at the Christian section or sections on here.I suppose,I think there will be enough other Christians on there to help.I tend to do stuff in my life,[and again this is what I do and may not be what other Chrisitians are supposed to do],I sort of look for gaps.So for instance,I have fostered in the past.I probably do quite a lot of hospital visiting.I go out of my way to talk to people who come across as lonely in RL etc.

the graveyard.Do you know the families personally,in the village or whatever,the ones that are still alive,to know that they were god-fearing?

"sometimes we trust that god knows this and chooses the lesser evil even if we never get a hint about what the greater evil would have been had they lived"

I can see how that is a comforting thought, and in some cases it might be true about the lesser evil, but surely you could apply that thinking to anything? For example I fall off a wall and break my arm, but thank goodness it wasn't my neck, must have been god 'looking after' me. Or I make some crap career choice, but in the grand scheme of things my crap choice might have stopped me from making an even worse one It doesn't stack up as a general 'rule for life'.

"I can see how that is a comforting thought, and in some cases it might be true about the lesser evil, but surely you could apply that thinking to anything? For example I fall off a wall and break my arm, but thank goodness it wasn't my neck"

yes that's exactly how it works, for e.g. DH's car broke down on a side road, now you can either go "bloody fecking car another fecking expense" or "thank god that since it was going to break down, it broke down on a quite road and not when he was on the motorway going 70 to or from work" (or a combination of both )

When many things appear to be going wrong at once, it doesn't help to get into a frame of mind where you think life is against you. "what next?" people seem to take longer to get out of a black hole than "ah well could have been worse" people

(although it is NOT a helpful thing to suggest to other people who are in the middle of a crisis or bereavement ! I only apply it to myself! )

amillonyears, you do sound lovely, but I would say that's your down to your own personality rather than God making you behave that way. I know you won't agree with me re the God bit though

The fact is that there are are lots of uncaring people who profess to be Christians, and lots of kind, helpful people who aren't Christian.

Lackingnamechange - I totally agree with seeing the positives, I try and use that mindset myself (just without the God bit)

technodad,I just thought that if you read a bit of the bible for yourself,you would get firsthand information so to speak.When I or other Christians tell or describe what is in the bible,you are effectivley getting the information secondhand.

I will try and remember about the spaces. So this line is correct, but the ones above are not right? Is that what you mean.
And do you mean it for all my posts, or just the ones to you?

WavingLeaves 15.23pm I would have to agree with your last paragraph.

Your first paragraph. I would like to think that I am a better behaving person than I would have been with just my original personality. I do try.

technodad, I will try about the spaces. Im having to change the habits of 6 months here, so I am likely to get it wrong sometimes often.

yes of course it can be achieved without the god bit
religion gives you a template to work through these things, there are others.

Just in response to the OP about all the prayers that were done for this girl, people don't necessarily always pray for ill people to live, sometimes they pray that if they die it is peaceful, or that they die if the alternative is worse etc and basically pray for "gods will" to be done. So the prayers weren't necessarily put in the "unanswered" column

Like if a feckless student is sitting exams, one wont necessarily pray for them to get As, they may pray for them to do they best they could or to cope well with the stress etc. an "F" doesn't = an unanswered prayer because in fact it would be bad for the person to get an A if they hadn't worked hard at it etc etc

No wonder they needed the support of chapel and the community centred on it, hey RedMolly

The thing is, the place in question still has a huge sense of community, just not centered on chapel anymore. I'm talking about within the last century btw - not that far back. Life is still tough mostly through unemployment and lack of opportunity, but not tough like it was for their grandparents, despite the fact that previous generations DID have god at the centre and the present one doesn't. I think what im getting at is in the past faith was pretty much a given yet life was really tough, whereas now, in a more secular society life is easier despite belief in god being diminished (usual caveats that of course i'm generalising, shit still happens, and life is not easier in most of the rest of the world).

I do know some of the families - not a place where people tend to move much, so yes, i know something about their families lives - i'm not just making an assumption about their religious predilictions. Being good christians didn't stop their babies dying in infancy, their wives dying of tb or their husbands being blown up in a mine explosion.

Amillion - where is your evidence for Christians having less problems? You can't make a claim like that in a discussion concerning proof without something to back it up. If you can't back it up we have no choice but to disregard your assertion. That's how it works.

Sorry amillionyears - I don't believe that God does intervene at all. If he does then Seeker is right and all the criticism leveled at those with faith are true. I firmly believe that if there is a God then he is there for support, to provide peace and ease suffering, not to randomly select people to provide a miracle to because it does appear random. Why should one person's prayer be answered by a miracle and not another? I'm not going to copy it out but have a look at Psalm 62:1-2. That effectively says what I am saying if you want a reference. I am sure that there are other examples.

My father is currently in hospital and is very very ill. I keep thinking I should pray and I haven't because I don't really have a faith (I can believe in the Son but not the Father or the Spirit) but if I did it would be to make sure that he is not scared and can find some peace and also the same for my mother who is with him so much more of the time than I can be. It is really tough on her. I don't think a prayer for his survival would make a difference one way or another. He may survive this illness but he is surely going to die one day as we all do. It would be wrong to expect a miracle to save him once because if it does once then why not every time his life, or anybody else's is threatened?

I do hope the operation on your uncle goes well though, and he makes a speedy recovery.

I know quite a lot of Christians,and a lot of non Christians. I expect I know as many people as the average in this country,or maybe more. So looking at literally all the people I know, the people in the Christian group have less problems ,with possibly a couple of exceptions, than the people in the non Christians group.
Im not sure what other proof I can give you.

Are you saying that is not true about the people that you know?

Amillion - i'm still not sure i understand how you can tell which thoughts are yours and which come from god. I meditate a lot and am familiar with a quiet voice deep inside that i can only hear when i am still. Would you think of that as god's voice? Or do you mean spontaneous thoughts that pop into your head?

headinhands - those with faith are supposed to be happier than those without so in a sense amillionyears is right.

The following extract is taken from the April 2011 edition of The Psychologist magazine (the BPS one not one you get from a newsagents) which did a full issue on psychology and religion.

"The consolations of religion

It is well documented that, usually, many religious beliefs and practices are associated with lower levels of depression and anxiety, and (where measured) higher levels of positive affect (Abdel-Khalek, 2007; Koenig et al., 2001; Loewenthal et al., 2000; Pargament, 1997), though the effects are not universally reported (e.g. Francis et al., 2003; Lewis & Cruise, 2006). Important beliefs seem to be those involved in religious faith and trust ? ?God is supporting me in this?, ?This is ultimately for the best?. An important practice is prayer: Maltby et al. (1999) showed that when other factors were partialled out, prayer was an important predictor of well-being. The general effect ? that religion can be consoling and supportive ? has been demonstrated in a range of cultures and religious groups including North American, European, Afro-American, Arab, South Asian, Christian, Jewish and Muslim. Much recent clinical literature has been occupied with discussions of how best to bring clinical practice in tune with religious and cultural needs (Cook et al., 2009; Pargament & Tarakeshwar, 2005; and see article by Adrian Coyle and Jenny Lochner on p.264)."

Sorry for the cut and paste but it was easier than trying to paraphrase and put in the references as well.

I read in new scientist or something similarly sciencey that our species survived when other didn't not because conditions were on average more favourable but because of faith in dieties which gave an extra bit of strength to go on in impossible situations

I think there is a difference between saying that faith makes people happy and that god makes christians lives easier than non-christians. Btw, did that study take into account catholic guilt ?

Amillion. I've known christians who have had to deal with great heartache as I have non believers. When you say you know a couple who have had great problems, what were they and how come this 'ring fence' thing didn't work for them?