I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

The problem I have with the 'prayer won't change anything, just give you wisdom' is that it is not an idea that is found in the new testament. It is a concept that believers have made up justify to themselves why god doesn't answer prayer even though he said he would. And wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there would be a marked difference, a very notable difference in the lives of people who were receiving wisdom direct from the force who created the entire universe? But there isn't. Shouldn't it be that those of us bereft of this wisdom are like people stumbling around in the dark being unable to function and problem solve whereas the people who have wisdom on tap would be clearly, wildly superior to the rest of us.

Headinhands - yes, and I would bet that yet again Christians will only blame themselves - not God - for any lack of discernable difference between how happy / contented / successful Christians and non-Christians are.

"So for that little girl who died: they prayed for her, and what their answer was was to surround her with family and friends who loved her, He might not have been able to keep her alive, but He made sure that she was loved and cared for, made sure that her life was as comfortable as it could be for the time she had left."

But an atheist family would still surround their girl with family and friends and make her as comfortable as possible. You're giving God the credit for something humans did, surrounding her with love and comfort. And yet for some reason you let him off the hook for something that was clearly within his all-powerful power, ie. preventing the suffering in the first place.

Good point headinhands.

headinhands,in an ideal world Christians should be standing out from other people by their deeds.
seeker,in her original post,said that the parents of the girl were "thoroughly good Chrisitian people who trusted God absolutely",so they must have stood out for her in some way.

Yes WavingLeaves,unfortuneately Chrisitians sin too,even after becoming Chrisitians.Christians are not perfect,and probably never will be.

BBB,yes God intervenes>It is often what we want and what we pray for.
One of my uncles is right now having an operation.I pray that the operation goes well,and that he has a good recovery.
If that means God has to help the surgeon,as it were,then please God help the surgeon.

MMM just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean He doesn't believe in you

"Christians are not perfect,and probably never will be."

Well, it's an inachievable goal for anybody to be perfect and sin free every moment of the day. Which means that Christianity is in effect setting up people to fail.

Maybe this is why some Christians are unhappy - effectively running around on a tread-mill seeking perfection? It's not a comfortable place to be, knowing that nothing you do will ever be truly good enough.

Headinhands last post is spot on. How do you differntiate between what god is telling you and your own thought process - or are you saying all your thoughts are god talking to you? How do us godless folk manage to think, plan, overcome? What is the difference?

I can understand what some of you are saying about comfort and healing. I just think that is a product of your (imo misplaced) faith rather than god, which is why earlier on in this thread non-believers were trying to be careful not to take that away from those who felt they needed it.

Maybe we should not pray for somebody to survive something, for somebody to win the lottery or get a better/new job.

This sounds more like taoism - going with the flow of the universe rather than battling against it (sorry, very oversimplistic). Maybe better explained as being in harmony through not interfering with the flow of tao or 'life force' for want of a more accurate term. Another belief system that doesn't require god. Agree with Garlic re: gnosticism - i don't know why it isn't more widely recognised - it would fit well with the way a lot of modern christians seem to think, but i guess unless you are prepared to look outside of what you think you believe you won't ever know about the alternatives. Sorry, digressing again!

Wavingleaves,I personally am content.God knows we will never be perfect Christians before we die.But whe are expected to learn and to try our best.
And if we do it wrong,we can ask for forgiveness.

May God ease the pain in the hearts of this grils family.
I've not read all the posts so I may be saying something that has already been said. Also, I don't mean to undermine the tragedy of this event by saying the following.
The Islamic view of God is rather different from the Christian view (which I have seen in my Christian friends but must vary I know). Muslims don't think that by believing in God that their lives will be better and they will be saved from pain. In fact the opposite might be true, God wishes to perfect us, and may well test us in order to refine our characters. I personally know a couple who lost their Christian faith when a member of their family died. While I really felt compassion for their pain, I did wonder where they thought God was while everyone else was suffering? Suffering has always and will always exist, and so we should not be so surprised when it touches us.
God has made the next world perfect, not this one, and whether we have ease and wealth and fortune, or suffering and poverty, it is our response to our circumstances that will help us reach a station with God. When we pray, we are emotionally handing our cares and worries to God, knowing that he knows the best for us, even if we don't know it ourselves.
In the Islamic view, when parents lose a child, that child will lead them into heaven by their umbilical cord.
I hope that the parents of this girl can see through their grief and maintain their faith in God, which will hopefully, ultimately be a comfort to them.

The concept of my mother is highly varied among her four offspring, yet I can assure you she is not a made up construct of our minds and is very much real.

Everyone should be entitled to their beliefs and entitled to express them and others should be entitled to challenge these beliefs, particularly when they impact on others with different or no beliefs.

I would also like to add that people should be entitled to discuss these beliefs with like-minded individuals without having them challenged, attacked or rubbished, as long as they are not impacting on others.

Do you mean eg. that a Christian prayer support thread should be left in peace Dione - as indeed it is here on MN ?
Whilst other threads like this one are more open to challenging one another's beliefs ?

Amillion. We're human, we make mistakes, some big some small. God expecting us to say sorry to him for being human when we get things wrong is like expecting small children to apologise to their parents when they fall over while learning to walk.

Why the jeff did we have to sacrifice animals in the ot to say sorry. God really got off big time on that smell didn't he. And that is your god. The god who you say listens to your concerns and guides you also loves the smell of a burning animal. So theoretically, as a Christian what's to stop someone stabbing their pet dog and chucking it on the BBQ? Because according to numerous verses in the bible god would be chuffed to bits if you did that.

"MMM just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean He doesn't believe in you"

I'm not sure what you mean by that nickel. Do you mean that when I do good compassionate things, you believe it's God that is causing me to do them, even though I don't believe in him?

Indeed I am Juggling.

Dione said " people should be entitled to discuss these beliefs with like-minded individuals without having them challenged..."

Seeker started this thread to invite discussion about belief in god for everyone. And how do you have a discussion about anything without challenge? I am happy for people to challenge my thinking, and even rubbish it so long as they explain why and how it is rubbish If someone can trash/mock/deride my thinking I will go away and have a sit and a think about what might be wrong with my thinking in order for it to be rubbished so easily. Not just pout and flounce and sulk about people being 'mean to me' and not playing nicely.

I do like Christian ritual, I do like the stories of Jesus, I even like the notion of God & have prayed to him a time or two. But I don't like to think about it too deeply because what I probably truly believe it that religion is a sop to the masses. That when life was bloody hard, life expectancy low, and you toiled all your life and then died, apart from the privileged few at the top, that religion made your sorry existence more 'meaningful' or rather kept you in your place. It is no mistake the Church and State go hand in hand.

Jugglingwithfiverings said: technodad - nice summary, but did remind me of what DD's been learning in history that when reading any historical account you have to consider who wrote it and their POV. Just that someone else might summarise the thread quite differently I imagine ?

Ironically, people will apply that scepticism to the summary I have written (because they have the evidence to review the history), but they won't apply any scepticism to the bible (or other religious text).

Frankly I don't have much time for people questioning what is, or isn't, fact on this thread when they aren't able to use their brains with other written text! Like you say, it is basic good practice taught to children at school, why does it get forgotten with religion?

Seeker did start this thread with the intention of discussion and challenge. However, this thread followed another where the OP wished to share personal belief and experience and was rubbished challenged on it.

I think there is room for challenge and I think there should be room for sharing without fear and I wish that this thread had started earlier and the other left alone.

Not really - I was well aware that what I said is very relevant to religious texts too. You and others have been very thought provoking on this thread. I think I'm not the only one who's shown that my beliefs are not set in stone and that we're prepared to consider a variety of viewpoints including moving our own position, which I'd agree could be liberating for some.

It all sounds like some feel they need to have their views protected. As a critical thinker I hope I would pounce on one of my own ideas if I felt it needed protecting from the thoughts of others. It would be like a big flashing beacon that there was a contradiction afoot.

How is it okay for the people who believe in god to post on here. But not okay for the people who don't believe in god to post over there? By your own admission you shouldn't be here!

Jugglingwithfiverings - sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn't targeting you specifically, it was a general comment. Thanks for your response though.

I don't see why all people can't contribute on any thread where it is appropriate. Appropriateness is a judgement call. For instance, I don't join in on a prayer thread (partially because they are brain numbing to read) and I don't contribute where someone is asking for religious help, because they don't need my Smart Alec thoughts.

Out of interest, did ANYONE listen to the infinite monkey cage podcast?