I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

BBB, I think I have covered all your points in the first paragraph, throughout this thread. I have had a look at the verses you quoted, nice verses , where David is waiting for God. Though dont understand why you have picked them.

I am sorry your father is very ill. I personally pray bascially everything,and let God sort through it. I would rather pray for stuff that he will discard, iyswim, rather than leave something out. I will pray for him in my way, if you would like me too.

Bigboobied - feeling that god is with you doesn't mean he is. Why about Muslims that feel their god is with them? Or people who think aliens have abducted them. Again, people's feelings are not evidence for god.

Amillion - With regards to the analogy of a child pulling his sisters hair. What normal parent would say 'if you pull your sisters you have to show how sorry you are to me by killing a few animals to calm me down and/or will kill you'

Just so you know you're not shouting into the void, technodad, I have bookmarked the monkey cage site and going to listen to all the available podcasts when I finally get off MN. Can't stand Coxy but love science-for-the-masses type things, so will put up with the nation's most narcissistic geekstar.

Strange as it may seem, amillion, I've read the whole bible at least three times - possibly more, in chunks - and do have a look at it every so often. On very very 'bad' days I might use it in taoist sort of way, opening at random to see if I can get an encouraging thought from what I find there. I have half a dozen books for this purpose. Sometimes I re-read verses I particularly like for their language. I don't, however, believe it is a work of non-fiction. The major historical events did happen, but the bible interpretations are skewed to the point of science fiction!

I've also read the talmud and the koran, plus various works of ancient Greek philosophers and Roman pundits. The common themes of human existence don't change much down the millennia.

Garlic - a few weeks ago during a dream someone in the dream obviously, gave me a bible verse. On waking I just had to have a look to see what my brain had thrown up from the depths of my memory. I had to larf because no such verse existed.

Very deep

The Bible is the great book of multiple choice.

Want to be a nice person and love everyone? Sure. Loads of verses to support you.

Want to be a bigot & hate homosexuals? Lots of verses to support that as well.

Want to beat up your kids for being cheeky? God's up with that too - he's says it's fine. As is slavery, torture, genocide & murder.

Whatever kind of person you want to be, good, bad or indifferent, the Bible is on your side.

Christians are the greatest cherry pickers ever known. It's all well and good to pick out the nice, gentle Jesus stuff, but it's dishonest to ignore the less pleasant, or even uncomfortable parts. Never mind the OT - most Christians ignore most of the NT too. Jesus was quite explicit in his instructions to his followers - you need to sell up all your stuff if you want to be in his gang. I bet not a single one of you has the vaguest intention of doing that, right?

(And NO - I haven't taken that out of context & he wasn't just talking to the people alive at the time, he was talking to everyone).

And the whole "metaphor" or "analogy" excuse won't wash either. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "Please don't take this literally". That's been assumed, without justification, because modern Christians wouldn't really like to live the life the Bible instructs - and don't want to worship the murderous, insane lunatic that Yahweh is clearly meant to be - so they just go ahead and ignore that stuff.

Not a point of view I can find any respect for at all. It's dishonesty, nothing less.

Garlicnuts - I didn't like Coxy at all either, but he gets a lot of stick on TIMC (from co-presenter and guests alike) and he takes it really well.

And I want to address the freewill issue, for anyone that's using that argument.

So, God is actually a loving god, whose heart breaks (metaphorically) every time we suffer, and is there to comfort us & give us hope. He'd really rather we didn't have to suffer like this, since he loves us, but in order to give us the gift of freewill, he has to let us exercise that however difficult life might become for us. But he knows that everything will be alright at the end, because it'll all be wonderful in Heaven and our suffering will be behind us.

Yes?

Illogical nonsense. Sorry.

Any universe creating deity could create any kind of life forms he wanted - ANY. He could quite easily of created beings that had free will, but absolutely no compulsion to do harm. We know he could have done, guess how? Because HE himself is such a being - thus proving that it's entirely possible. He has free will, yet manages (according to most Christians) to be perfectly good all the time. His angels have free will, and they manage to behave themselves pretty well. And when you get to Heaven, Christians - will you have free will there?

So, it's absolutely possible to have beings that do have free will, but won't use it to rape, murder & torture their fellow beings.

It is also possible to have a world without bacteria, germs, cancer, HIV & all the other appalling afflictions that beset us. We could have a world where killing & eating other creatures is not necessary. A world which does not include suffering is quite, quite possible.

But your God CHOSE to create all of those things. He planned a world that included Hitler, Charles Manson, Ian Huntley & sat and plotted out all the things they'd do to hurt others. He didn't have to - he wanted to. Nice.

But, hey, it'll all come out in the wash - because we'll get our reward in Heaven!

So what? That's like me saying to my DS - right, I'm going to beat the hell out of you today, starve you and lock you in the attic. But, it's OK - I'll take you to Thorpe Park tomorrow and you can forget all the horror I'm inficting on you today.

You know what - I'm glad your God doesn't exist. If it did, I wouldn't worship it.

You do know this Meany Peany God doesn't exist right, Crikey ?

• You painted quite a convincing picture there for a minute

And Thorpe Park can be quite a scary place too I've got to report

technodad 15.05pm
when I said a couple of posts most days can be enough, I sort of meant it can be enough for Christians, so I just thought that if you had wanted a peek, it would give you a directly firsthand quick look.

I have listened to the first 10 minutes of the podcast, and I take on board that coincidences for instance can happen more frequently than we would expect. I did statisitics as part of A level maths quite a lot of years ago fwiw,so probability is not such an alien subject to me as say chemistry is.
The only think I can say is that,if you were me,you would know that the way my life works,can defy the odds[if that is the right expression, as I have never been in a bookies in my life, so again I may have used the wrong words there].

come on amillionyears, listen to it all, it is only 30 mins long.

RedMolly 15.52pm and 16.03 pm
I think Christians are a product of their time just like non Christians.
So if the average age of dying amongst miners in 1900 was 50 for non Christians,it might be average 56 for Christian miners. God wouldnt allow it to be say 75 like today.
Just to clarify, those figures are completely made up, but I tried to use an example to try and explain things.

I meant spontaneous thoughts.

I really couldnt say whether the quiet voice you hear is God's. It might be.

headinhands 16.20 pm
"a couple who have had great problems,what were they and how come "ring fence" didnt work for them.

I have to be careful here,because for all I know they could be on MN.
They no longer live local to me.They,as far as I can tell are genuine Christians.
They, as a family, have had a multitude of health problems, and life just does not seem to run smoothly for them.
I have to also be careful at this point,because Christians are allowed, surprisingly to judge other Christians. But it comes with a warning in the bible,for Christians to first take the log out of our own eyes. So I judge Christians very sparingly or not at all.
I judge this particular couple to be a bit unwise Christians. I am not saying for sure that that is why they have had so many problems, but I do wonder if they would have had so many.
I have prayed in the past for them to have more wisdom, and for them themselves to ask God for more wisdom.
As Christians,as well as Gods wisdom, we are supposed to help ourselves by also using common sense. Which they may not do.

But amillion you can't use completely made up stuff in a logical debate. How about if I said I think Christians get divorced more that non-Christians. Would you just agree or request some back-up figures?

ring fencing. didnt want to lose my last post , so doing it seperately.
I probably didnt explain it very well. It seems to me from what I have read in the bible,that God spiritually speaking has put a spiritual fence around us. But he allows the fence to be lifted from time to time.

So,for the couple I described, it wouldnt be a case of the ring fence not working. God may well of allowed certain things to happen, but they may well be somewhat adding problems that should not be happening.

technodad,my time is limited.
You can summarise the rest to me if you want to.

Also while I am on the subject of time, I will prob not be on here tomorrow. My DH , sometimes rightly says I may be getting addicted to MN,so for the past few weeks I take a 24 hour break from it every week.

headinhands,which bit do you think I have made up?

I think it was the bit about the miners amy (million)

• but I Thought it was sort of OK in a slightly crazy way (if you'll forgive me) because you were saying that's what you'd expect the figures to be .... still ... (confuddled face !)

It seems Christians do live longer. The health benefit is thought to come from meditative practices, rather than one particular version of god, as the same effect is observed in followers of any spiritual tradition.

amillion I was referring to "^
Just to clarify, those figures are completely made up, but I tried to use an example to try and explain things.^"

Stoopid editing fail.

Well, I'll be interested to follow up those links garlic - I hope they haven't just assumed it's due to the benefits of meditative practices (though i would find that interesting too) .... I hope they've taken into account things like religious people being more serious minded, sensible, and more risk averse - all that sort of accompanying stuff ( I just so often find that a causal relationship is assumed or sought where it can often be an alongside relationship (forget correct terminology for that !)

Ah garlic maybe Yahweh's bountiful loveliness spills over to other false religions?

Just wanted to acknowledge and thank Hardlyeverhoover for her post as I thought it added something interesting to the discussion but seems to have been overlooked. I agree that the idea that the concept of prayer as some sort of insurance policy for believers is immature and I don't actualy think its a part of christian theology. The purpose of prayer is a lot closer to Quinessentalshadows description up thread.
I don't know how much more I actually want to contribute as I feel that the tone is becoming a little snidey. Could I also suggest the ship of fools forum as a good place to discuss with knowledgeable Christians.