I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

Yes - and I addressed the thread title & the issue of "absolute proof" up thread, Gelatinous. But since you ignored my post and kept on and on about it, I thought it might be worth repeating.

seeker I've also asked that question (using decapitated heads) and no one's answered me either.

Or indeed most of the other questions I've asked, or points I've made.

Ah, just noticed your extra line. No phone-related prayers required.

why should we have to answer it seeker? No-one knows the mind of god and that he doesn't do that kind of miracle doesn't 'prove' anything.

Gelatinous, you've raised a fundamental philosophy question in your post at 00:52. You're not interested in exploring "What does reality mean?" though, are you? Just reiterating that faith is evidence in itself. Or something like that.

Do you know how science tries to prove that something's right?

By not being able to prove it wrong. That's a really important part of the scientific method.

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE to 100% prove anything is true or false (except in mathematics), I don't find it particularly compelling that we cant disprove prayers/God/The Flying Spaghetti Monster since I wouldn't expect to be able to.

I hope that makes sense. I am too tired to think at the moment.

why should we have to answer it seeker? No-one knows the mind of god and that he doesn't do that kind of miracle doesn't 'prove' anything.

Well, sorry - but yes it does if the very definition of that God is that he DOES answer prayers and that he DOES perform miracles. The fact that none of those things happen DOES prove that that God doesn't exist.

I don't think I'm clever enough to be as deep as that garlic. Faith certainly exists, and it never seems very fruitful arguing with people who have it. It's easier for all to go along with the idea that there's a tiny chance they're right and live and let live.

I think being a mathematically minded person I have higher than average standards of proof too.

Not all christians even believe in miracles though (according to GCSE re textbook). The bible is open to enough interpretations that you can't really say that is the 'definition of god', and I still don't accept you can say categorically that god doesn't answer prayer or perform some miracles either.

It's a real shame Gel that you don't take the trouble to bother reading threads that are addressed to you.

I said quite specifically to you that there are 33,000 denominations of Christianity all of which probably have a different definitions of God - so there's actually no need for you to make a similar point to me, is there?

Before you start trying to prove or disprove something you have to define terms. For the purpose of this discussion, Seeker defined the God she was disproving - the prayer answering one. And that is by far and away the most common definition of Yahweh that there is.

I believe in God
I don't seek to make anyone else believe in God
I don't care if people think I am some kind of thicko for doing so
That is all.

Gelatinous said - "I still don't accept you can say categorically that god doesn't answer prayer or perform some miracles either"

Which god are you referring to? If you're referring to the Christian god then what about the anecdotal evidence for Allah answering prayer and granting miracles to his followers.

"He's a sort of alternative therapist" seeker

"Really good at bad backs and unaccountable feelings of unease and ennui"

That's quite funny seeker - though I wonder if bad backs can be quite tricky sometimes ?

True. Replace "bad back" with "uncomfortable personal bloating".

As far as I know the only agreed definition for 'God' is a being who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
Answering prayers and performing miracles are not part of that (though obviously some Christians believe that, but it is not the dictionary-type definition). All the monotheistic religions would agree with the above definition.

Morning seeker and friends. I wonder if this thread will be as lively today ?
Plenty of questions still to be answered all round I'd say ...
Especially by the old bearded man on the cloud

Well iggi, if he's not into answering prayers or performing miracles he's not doing much with all that omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence is he ?

Apart from I guess creating a mostly beautiful and well-functioning universe
and a bunch of people who at their best can be lovely at times

But from some accounts he did all that in the first week. Seems he's pretty much been chillaxing (DS word ) since then ? ( A man after my own heart ? But perhaps that's not so surprising if follow the God created in our own image idea ? )

I think it is easier to deal with the allegory likening God to Space aliens from further down.

If you send a radio signal into space, and it goes unanswered, it could be wrong frequency, wrong "language"....

But with God, this should not matter?

Or are we all praying in the wrong language?

Sorry to sound flippant, my own Faith is constantly rocked by the unfairness of all things. I pray and pray, yet it is like calling out in Norwegian to a God who knows all languages but mine, or simply cant hear me. I feel we are battling through a pointless life, and around me I see that my agnositc - atheist friends coast through life on a wave of pink fluffy happiness and problem free existence, with enough money, holidays, good health, well behaved children etc. And my Christian friends are bogged down with issue after issue.

It seriously makes me wonder if the Forces of Good have lost the battle totally.

Or what is it? Do we place our faith in God to make it right for us, so we dont bother learning, striving, achieving? I dont believe this. I think I work as hard as anybody to make the right decisions, and to do the right things, and to be a good person in the process. Does it pay? Are we happy? No.

If we list all the things that God cant do. Save people from dying, heal illness, stop war, forest fires, vulcanoes erupting, earth quakes and tsunamis, what can God do? What reason is is behind all this suffering?

It seems to me that it is better to just accept we are on our own.
And that life is due to some Alien species experiments on our planet. Or something.

You could look at it differently QS ?

I mean when comparing your Christian and non-Christian friends.

Could it simply be that some people are quite happy to enjoy the slightly superficial "pink fluffy" materialism and general good times this world has to offer, and don't feel the need to be part of a faith community. Other people, sometimes those who are finding life more of a struggle, or who like to seek a deeper meaning for life, do value the community, support, and structure of their faith ?

I've probably offended everyone there ! But I don't mean to judge anyone - Just each to their own !

I would like to summarise the data raised so far in the 500 odd posts.

• There is no evidence in the world that prayer works and any anecdotal evidence only exists because of people cherry picking data points thus skewing the results - FACT.
• There is evidence that prayer doesn't work, but a number of religious people on this thread state that they don't think they are intelligent enough to understand it (and then ironically continue to argue against it), which is rather depressing really.
• the concept of god is varied amongst religious followers and it therefor highly likely to be a made-up concept by the human brain. Atheist however, all give consistent answers to questions because their knowledge is based on facts and not mumbojumbo (and the answer "I don't know") is a regularly used and acceptable answer for an atheist).
• evolution has given humans and animals the ability to spot patterns in events even when they don't exist (survival of the fittest) and this characteristic, combined with a lack of understanding of statistics means that it is natural for us to think that events were caused by something supernatural.
• People like the comfort of the idea of god and the process of prayer is also comforting (even if it doesn't do anything outside the individual human's brain).
• The bible has some valid data in it, but huge quantities of the book are now proven to be nonsense. This is of no surprise considering that the book was written a long time ago, and has some pretty crappy translations, with political bias, a lack of science and a lot of interpretation of (now explainable) events.
• everyone is, and should always be entitled to their own beliefs, but we should always be able to challenge them - especially when people use god as an excuse for war!

That's made me think of something juggling - Most Christians now confer that the creation story is an allegory. But then the 4th commandment is about the sabbath and god says that we have to rest on that day because he did. And breaking that commandment carried the death penalty.

Now I have heard Christians justify the sabbath laws by proposing that god was making sure we spent time with our families. It's a bit extreme. Imagine using that form of control with your kids all the time. 'eat your weetabix or I WILL KILL YOU!' 'brush your teeth or I WILL KILL YOU!' 'look both ways when you cross the road or I WILL KILL YOU!'

The thing that I find interesting about the 10 commandments is that the first 4 are about gods human like ego. That's almost half! You'd think, being a loving god n'all he'd use that time he had with Moses to impart something more practical. Frankly they make him look like a narcissist.

headinhands - I was wondering which of my posts made you think of that - I've written a few and they've been quite varied ? Your post made me smile
"Frankly they make him look like a narcissist" & "eat your weetabix or I WILL KILL YOU" (about a death penalty for not keeping the sabbath)

technodad - nice summary, but did remind me of what DD's been learning in history that when reading any historical account you have to consider who wrote it and their POV. Just that someone else might summarise the thread quite differently I imagine ?

I just had an epiphany in the shower.

God is not meant to DO anything at all. Prayer is not meant to be a request, or a one way demand. It is communication. You lay out your troubles. God replies, not by doing anything, but by giving wisdom in form of thoughts or solutions.

Maybe we all misunderstand what prayer is supposed to be.
Maybe we should not pray for somebody to survive something, for somebody to win the lottery or get a better/new job. Maybe we should pray for them to get strength to cope, the wisdom to go on, clarity to work out what to do, how to get that new job, work out how to achieve something. It is not just handed on a plate. Maybe prayer should be seen as meditation. You cant just ask God and expect to be given. But you could ask for wisdom and guidance, and it will come to you...

?

I've stayed away from this thread since i first posted.

but, okay.

God doesn't interfere in life and death. he doesn't choose (any more!) who lives and dies, or for how long, and what of.
What he does do, for those who are suffering, is give them strength to cope with it, to get through it.

So for that little girl who died: they prayed for her, and what their answer was was to surround her with family and friends who loved her, He might not have been able to keep her alive, but He made sure that she was loved and cared for, made sure that her life was as comfortable as it could be for the time she had left.
All those people who were praying for her? what about that you think of them as being sent by God to look after her and to hold her in their hearts while she was alive.

It's like that Footprints poem:

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints,
other times there were one set of footprints.

                              This bothered me because I noticed
                            that during the low periods of my life,
                         when I was suffering from
                     anguish, sorrow or defeat,
                 I could see only one set of footprints.

      So I said to the Lord,
  "You promised me Lord,
     that if I followed you,
         you would walk with me always.
               But I have noticed that during
                      the most trying periods of my life
                             there have only been one
                                   set of footprints in the sand.
                                       Why, when I needed you most,
                                      you have not been there for me?"

                             The Lord replied,
                      "The times when you have
              seen only one set of footprints,
      is when I carried you."
                                               Mary Stevenson

Quint - that has been my argument all along and I completely agree with you.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think if prayer has any power it is to heal which is about feeling better, coping better and finding strength or peace. It isn't about curing which is what doctors do. We shouldn't be expecting a God, if there is one, to intervene, only to support because to expect intervention means a curtailment of our freewill and consciousness. And then there is always the issue about at which point intervention is required, if you are expecting God to sort everything out. It just doesn't make sense to me at all that people expect miracles everytime they ask.

Cross posted with nickel. I think we are saying the same sort of thing too.