I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

Gelat said - "but there's always the outside chance that a prayer was actually answered for some reason."

Yes but there's as much evidence for the christian god as there is for magical healing unicorns which means that the unicorn has the same odds for being responsible for healing mr photocopier as the prayer did but you don't consider that plausible. Also spontaneous recovery does happen, it's documented and it happens as much to believers of all faiths as non believers. Spontaneous recovery is not a miracle. It's just a rare event that sometimes happens.

All doctors learn "nature is the best medicine" (Vis medicatrix naturae). Contemporary medicine aims to remove obstacles to natural healing and, ultimately, depends on the body's ability to rebalance itself for complete recovery. So-called miracles happen all the time in medicine, as do inexplicable problems. Our scientists study these events in order to be better prepared in future; it's an ongoing learning process.

No ethical doctor would take full credit for a patient's perfect recovery, but some religious practitioners are willing to take full credit - or hand it to god.

And as you pointed out, technodad, the religious practitioners are markedly less willing to take the full blame (or hand it to god) when the patient doesn't get better

Surely god is a thing so personal to everyone who believes? Some people think it's a bloke with a beard on a cloud, a rare belief these days I think, but still true for some! but most people have their own concept of god. Mine is so complicated I couldn't possibly try and explain it and if I could explain it and put it in a nice well explained box it would make it smaller than me which is kind of negates the point.

God (god ) came to me about a year ago. It is not a christian god, it is a god of no denomination and it has nothing to do with men wearing silly robes. My god is a connection of being part of a whole, of community, of love and looking out for others and myself. It manifests itself in natural phenomena that I can't explain but blows my mind. My connection is tenuous and elusive but I like to search for it. I have ways and means of getting there but I think I'd have more luck if I were sitting atop a peruvian mountain rather than in an inner city terraced house, lol

I love god. I hate religion.

I'm sorry for your friend, seeker. That's a shitty thing to happen for anyone. x

So Schlock, what you are clearly saying is that god is a made up concept by individuals.

I agree.

Me, too!

technodad the reason my words support the atheist view is that is my belief. But I've had a very religious upbringing and would have to say that in most reported cases I've heard of the doctors have said 'it's a miracle', but that's probably just the way the story is told rather than the actual speech used (though I can imagine some doctors would use that expression more readily than others) - it makes no difference really - it's just something doctors can't understand.

As to why so few cases, well as you point out the obvious reason is they are statistically unlikely and down to chance, but I put this to you:

the statistics themselves are based on our observations of events and so would include miraculous healings if they existed. Suppose for example, people waking up from long term comas is an act of god. If god was twice as active and over the years woke twice as many people up, then we'd just think it was normal for that higher number of people to recover. The gainsayers would still say it was statistically unlikely and discount it just as they do now, so really whenever you have even a very few inexplicable events you can't claim 'absolute proof' of an absence of miracles though it's still perfectly acceptable, if not reasonable, to not believe in them.

I am totally saying that god is something that is a concept different to everyone. I think my god is akin to something buddhist, but I have little to no knowledge of buddhism. I'd like to learn but I don't seem to have the time I an barely find the time to meditate!

I like spirituality. I have spirituality, I am beginning to understand what my spirituality means. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else's idea of god (God). I just would never put a capital 'G' on my god because it seems arrogant.

Okay gelatinous. It's an oldie but why do we never see amputated limbs regenerating and so on? Or people with downs syndrome suddenly have the extra chromosome removed from their genetics? And if you think there is a particular deity at work behind these rare spontaneous recoveries from terminal illnesses how do you decide which one was responsible. Yahweh? Allah? Krishna and so on?

You could claim they don't exist if the same rate of "miracle" recoveries occur no matter what religious group (assuming the same quality of medical care and social economic background of patient) - but I don't have the data to hand to prove this (and am not sure if it exists). .

But religious people would probably make something up like: "god does miracles for other religious groups too" or some other shit like that, but to make their thoughts match the event.

I think these events do happen equally across religious groups, that could be all the gods being equally -in-effective or one of them being especially impartial who knows? Limb regrowth probably too difficult or controversial.

All weak arguments I know, but I'm not having this absolute proof stuff either. I'll allow exceedingly unlikely.

Yeah. God hates to be controversial. And limb regrowth is so tricky isn't it! Entire universe in 6 days? No problemo. Replacement limb for earthquake victim? Get a grip. He's not that good.

or that bovvered.

He's a sort of alternative therapist. Really good at bad backs and unaccountable feelings of unease and ennui. Broken bone? Proper doctor please.........

Can help you out with one thing Schlock - Buddhists (or at least most of them) do not believe in a god. Buddha believed religions were borne out of fear. He talks very little about metaphysics but does say that there is no evidence for god and the existence of god is not necessary for a happy and fulfilled life (or words to that effect). Sorry for the digression.

Hi millionyears:

intervenes/doesnt. Down to Gods choice,also varies as to who he is talking to whether he intervenes or not. Same for prayers.

This is back to god and his magic get out of jail free card isn't it? God intervenes - god is good, god doesn't intervene, god is still good - he has a plan.

God has a plan/doesnt have a plan. Yes he has a plan for Christians.And some non Christians too as they can well be Christians waiting to happen,or will happen in the furture,or hopefully happen in the future.

So, and i think this might have been asked before, what about those people who are never exposed to christianity? Are they the weeds among the crops too? What do you believe will become of those that choose to reject god? My point was though, that other christians on this and other threads have said that god does not have a plan - it's up to us and our free will. I have to say it again, the bible is full of direct interventions and promises of interventions, and yet no one has been able to give an example of this happening in their experience, nothing that can not be explained by more rational means.

You're doing a grand job btw - hope you're enjoying it and not tearing your hair out!

Crikey, what I mean is that Christianity has compelled lots of people to alleviate suffering etc. THat's different to just being nominally 'Christian' by birth.

It's also compelled lots of people to torture & murder too.

And, really, is that something to be proud of? That your religion "compels" you to do good things? Would you not bother if you didn't have your religion then?

I'm an atheist. I do good things. I don't need to be told to by some book of bronze age myths, or the hope that I'm going to get a celestial pat on the head after I die.

I do good things because they are the right thing to do, and that's that.

OK.

Why has God never cause a severed limb to reattach?

Simple question. I'm sure people have prayed for that to happen over the centuries. Why has it never happened?

Thank you so much, RedMolly, for mentioning buddhism as 'not a religion'. It's the only metaphysical belief system I give any credence to - not too much, as I reject reincarnation, nirvana and 'energy flows' - for its attempt to crystallise self-knowledge in a peaceful and pragmatic manner.

Another mystical, subtle belief system is gnosticism. I'm surprised it isn't having a revival: its fluid understanding of god (it's monotheistic) fits quite well with the variation of views expressed by believers on this thread. Both buddhism and gnosticism promote an ascetic lifestyle and a lot of hard thinking: buddhism seems to have adapted better to Western comforts but gnosticism is equally flexible, at least in theory.

Gelatinous

If you're expecting "absolute proof" you're not going to get it. Nobody can absolutely prove with 100% certainty that prayers don't work or that God doesn't exist, but that's really not the point.

You cannot absolutely prove the non-existence of - literally - an infinite number of things. You cannot absolutely prove that leprechauns aren't sneaking onto the ward at night to cure tumours.

But that is NOT the point. It's all about what we CAN prove.

We can prove that tumours shrink. That people emerge from comas. That medically unlikely things can and do happen - unlikely enough to leave doctors and nurses scratching their heads.

A belief is either justifiable or it's not. That there are supernatural events curing people of illness is an unjustifiable belief given the complete and total lack of anything in the way of evidence supporting it. It's not even a credible hypothesis at this stage - it's all a load of whooey.

And if your position is (as it seems to be) "Well, I know it's very unlikely, but because we can't absolutely disprove that prayer works, I'm not going to dismiss it as a possibility for all those mysterious events I keep hearing about".

OK - but on that basis I hope you're not dismissing my leprechaun hypothesis, or the invisible unicorn hypothesis, or Fairy Tinkerbell. Because they have AS MUCH credibility as the God Answering Prayers hypothesis.

Look at the thread title Crikey

Why has God never cause a severed limb to reattach?

Simple question. I'm sure people have prayed for that to happen over the centuries. Why has it never happened?

I'm going to repeat this post at regular intervals until somebody answers.

And, really, is that something to be proud of? That your religion "compels" you to do good things? Would you not bother if you didn't have your religion then?

Yh, Crikey, it REALLY winds me up when people refer to good deeds as a 'christian' thing to do! It's not, it's a human things to do. Humans of all religious persuasions (including no persuasion) do good deeds all the time. They also start wars and do a lot of vile things - both good and bad, irrespective of religious label.

You're right that many large-scale atrocities have been committed under a christian banner. Tbf, though, it was really about land or gold or spices - just as current ones are about oil, while waving a flag for democracy. The biblical god told his chosen people to go raping & pillaging, but that was about land too.

Seeker, how about praying for a phone that submits each post once?

and my position is that god, flying spagetti monsters and unicorns are all roughly equally improbable and you can't use a probable but not verifiable absence of miracles to disprove any of them.