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Philosophy/religion

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I have absolute proof that there is no God.

999 replies

seeker · 18/08/2012 14:51

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

OP posts:
garlicnuts · 20/08/2012 19:13

... whereas I say those things are random. The universe(s) is founded on randomness, everything that happens in it started out random, everything that develops in it develops randomly. So far, so god-like. I make no assumption of purpose but, then, god doesn't reveal its purpose either so no points lost either side.

The difference arises in the ineffable love business, and the afterlife. Actually we will continue after life - as an atomic diaspora, joining & separating ad infinitum. Jolly inspiring, I think Grin

So what about the ineffable love? WHY do you need to believe human kindness, compassion, imagination and so on come from outside of humans? What's wrong with just taking it as it comes, appreciating it, and following your genetic instinct to improve?

dreamofwhitehorses · 20/08/2012 19:25

The love is part of the ineffable nature of god I think. He loves his creation and he loves it unconditionally whether that's a tornado an eye burrowing worm or a lazy rather selfish individual like me!

headinhands · 20/08/2012 19:27

Sorry holoferness! That's the second time today I've misread something. Will go back later to find who it was who said that. Am cooking at the mo, well, boiling eggs, so will be brief. If you agree that the great commission is for all Christians why is there no verifiable evidence of Christians being immune to poison or performing miraculous healings in accordance with Jesus words?

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 19:32

Redmolly 12.25pm God has a plan/doesnt have a plan.God intervenes/doesnt intervene ,answers prayers/doesnt answer prayers.

intervenes/doesnt. Down to Gods choice,also varies as to who he is talking to whether he intervenes or not.
Same for prayers.

God has a plan/doesnt have a plan. Yes he has a plan for Christians.And some non Christians too as they can well be Christians waiting to happen,or will happen in the furture,or hopefully happen in the future.
Does he have a plan for absolutely everyone.Not sure.there is a parable in the bible,the parable of weeds,where the Devil comes along and plants weeds among the corn[or some other crop].Which makes me think that there is not a plan for those people.No idea how many they number,hopefully not a lot.
Which is why to me, it is so important for Christians not to judge people.As Christians we have no idea who is going to be a Christian in the future.
We,as Christians are allowed to actually hate bad behaviour,but we are so not to judge the people doing it.And yes,that goes all the way from minor bad behaviour to the very worst you can think of.
We are to love Christians and non Christians.

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 19:35

lol at ineffable love for an eye-burrowing worm.

The Bible is human-centric (not surprisingly, since it was created by humans) - but it makes even less sense (if that were possible) when you start bringing parasites into the equation.

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 19:36

CrikeyOHare 15.27pm I am not in favour of the death penalty.

seeker · 20/08/2012 19:37

Headinhands- rhat's the question I want an
Answer to as well. God specifically said that prayers would
Be answered.- and nobody has yet been able
to give me an example of a single where this has happened. Obviously I mean a prayer the granting of which actually required
Divine intervention, not just the application of probability.

OP posts:
amillionyears · 20/08/2012 19:40

Wavingleaves 12.41pm
The bible is inspired by God.
Agree with you that some of modern Christian thinking needs to get back to basics.

MMMarmite · 20/08/2012 19:41

Thanks garlicnuts. It appears we think alike :) I'm sorry about whatever difficult stuff is going on in your life.

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 19:44

amillionyears - and the eye-burrowing worm, God-inspired too? Or a mere creation? Sorry, but none of it will ever any sense, although I appreciate that people spend a lot of time and energy trying.

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 19:45

make and sense (ha ha)

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 19:45

ffs any sense (gives up Grin )

MMMarmite · 20/08/2012 19:46

lol :D

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 19:50

Yeah, listen to me - I can explain life, the universe and everything. Wink

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 19:52

To someone whose post I cannot find right now!And partly technodad too.
And this is very important.

Why do Chrisitans answer differently to each other
a.we are not always the best Christians we could be
b.we are not always very bright Christians
c.we do not have all the time in the world to read it all and properly understand it all
d.some Christians are new Christians and will not know as much.
e.the bible is a huge book
f.occasionally,what is the right thing for 1 Christian to do,is not right for another.If for example,one Christian thinks they should not do x for a technical reason,it then becomes wrong for them to do it because they think it would be wrong,and therefore they are acting against their faith.But another Christian may well know it is okay technically,so can go ahead and do it.
g.the bible is not an wasy book to understand.Sometimes I actually think God has had it written in a muddled way on purpose.Even the books in the Old Testamount I think I am right in saying,are not in the right chronological order.

Above all,being a Christian is being in a personal relationship with God.That is why,above all,it is important for people to get a copy of the bible and read it for themselves.Then they can make their own mind up.

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 20:01

seeker 19.37pm.
Examples of prayers being answered yes I presume you mean.

Like a poster said around noon today,if the little girl that you have talked about lived,would you then personally have said God had answered yes?
Because if you say she died because the answer was no,then you have to say that had she lived,then God did answer yes to that one.Else God is on to a lose/lose in your eyes.

So you need to have your eyes open ready for the next one iyswim.

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 20:09

CrikeyOHare 15.46
Dont worry about the picking apart.
I would need a bible refereence to answer the first part.
The second part,the Math 5:2 We are all going to be judged,so I cant say that bit bothers me more than any other.I am always aware that we have to explain or be ready to explain everything we have done and said in our lives at the end,so that is not brilliant either.

amillionyears · 20/08/2012 20:13

WavingLeaves,i cant find the worm bit.Is it on someone else post?

WavingLeaves · 20/08/2012 20:22

Don't worry about it too much amillionyears Smile

It was just in response to an earlier comment about nature being 'bad' as well as beautiful, and then dreamofwhitehorses response

"The love is part of the ineffable nature of god I think. He loves his creation and he loves it unconditionally whether that's a tornado an eye burrowing worm or a lazy rather selfish individual like me!"

I was being a bit flippant about the Bible being God-inspired, and wondering whether the worm was also God-inspired or a mere 'creation'. And making the point that (yet again) none of it makes any logical sense from a loving creator point of view.

technodad · 20/08/2012 20:32

Amillionyears

Thank you for getting round to answering that one for me.

The other half of the same question was aimed at atheists: "why do atheists always give the same answer to a question". To which the answer would be because we only deal with facts, and when we don't know the answer we always say either "I don't know", or "our current best theory is".

The problem is, that your list of reasons from a to g add further evidence that Christians just make up their own interpretation of a book, which was in itself is a translation of someone else's interpretation of events (often after some good-old Chinese whispers). So basically, very very very unreliable data which is generally baseless.

I can understand why this boom was useful before the knowledge we have today, but to keep clinging onto it when it can clearly be replaced is just ignorance!

By the way - I survived the body boarding, so if anyone did pray that I wouldn't, then this can be included as another datapoint that prayer doesn't work (but if you prayed that I would survive, then please bear in mind that my chances of survival were almost 1 (i.e. pretty much certain) so it can not be used to prove that prayer works!)

Did anyone on this thread listen to the Randomness and Probability episode of "The Infinite Monkey Cage" podcast like I suggested? Please do, I guarantee you will find it an interesting half an hour!

Now that this thread has run to over 400 posts there are people joining in who have not read a lot of important posts. This means we are now going over old ground. I will keep checking to see if anyone has anything to say after listening to TIMC podcast (or if people have anything interesting to say about this last post that isn't a repeat of an old discussion).

seeker · 20/08/2012 20:53

"seeker 19.37pm.
Examples of prayers being answered yes I presume you mean.

Like a poster said around noon today,if the little girl that you have talked about lived,would you then personally have said God had answered yes?
Because if you say she died because the answer was no,then you have to say that had she lived,then God did answer yes to that one.Else God is on to a lose/lose in your eyes.

So you need to have your eyes open ready for the next one "
No, I think she died because there is no god and medical science could not save her. Nothing to do with God. If she had lived, when it was completely medically impossible for her to have lived, then maybe that would have been an indication of a granted prayer. But that never happens.

OP posts:
headinhands · 20/08/2012 21:37

Holoferness said - "I'd say that the reason this is so is that all people rea created by God whether they believe in him or not, and therefore have something of God's nature in them,"

What about other species that display empathy and altruism particularly apes? Do they have gods spirit in them? And at what point in our evolution did god put his spirit in us? Furthermore what about sociopaths/psychopaths? How do you address that when in light of us all having gods spirit in us? And what about all the instances of god wiping out people in the ot down to their supposed vileness? What happened to the god bit in them for that to happen?

gelatinous · 20/08/2012 21:52

You keep saying it never happens seeker, but I have met people who claim it has and where doctors have been unable to explain. You hear of cases where doctors are befuddled as to how or why tumours have shrunk inexplicably or babies left for dead at birth that nurses have found alive hours later, that sort of thing - there was a baby case like that in the news recently I think. I have heard first hand a man recount how he was blinded by a faulty photocopier and healed after prayer (months later) long after doctors had told him it was permanent.

Of course, you can always talk about how doctors don't understand everything or can make mistakes, or how people recounting such events may be exaggerating, misremembering or downright lying but there's always the outside chance that a prayer was actually answered for some reason.

technodad · 20/08/2012 21:54

Btw, I meant "book" not "boom" two posts down.

It has gone very quiet - I hope you are all learning about statistics using my suggested podcast. Grin

technodad · 20/08/2012 22:02

Gelatinous.

No one said that statistically unlikely things can't happen (such as inoperable tumours shrinking). They can and they do, but in the vast majority of cases the people die and no one congratulates god for killing their loved one! Why are only the good outcomes counted in your statistics?

The words you use support the atheist view - the doctor says "I can't explain it". notably the doctor doesn't say "your prayer worked", because there is no proof that it did.

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