I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

[CrikeyOHare]

Gelatinous And I've ready many, many accounts of people claiming to have been taken away by alien spaceships and had probes stuck up their bottoms.

Know what these accounts have in common with the miracle claims of the religious? A complete and total lack of evidence.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

&

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

A cat finding it's own way home is a common event & does not need evidence to demonstrate the truth of it. That God helped it along IS an extraordinary claim, and without evidence, it's meaningless & should be dismissed.

[Viperidae]

The whole point of faith is that it is a belief where there is no proof.

Well done Seeker, you seem to think you know everything that mankind has questioned and philosophised for centuries.

[Lougle]

Faith is something you can't conjure up. You can't pretend it's there, and if it isn't, it just isn't. So nothing anyone says is going to convince you that the events people describe as miracles are, in fact, miracles.

Only one anecdote from me:

Our pastor was suddenly taken ill. Seriously ill. The doctors operated a few times, expecting to see huge collections of fluid in the brain, and when they opened him up, there was very little at all. Every time they operated, he got worse, not better.

After a little while, the doctors took the family to one side and said 'we think he's going to die within the week.' Now, this man was by this time in a coma, no executive function (but not ventilated), didn't even look like himself. People across the world were praying for him. Many knew him, but many more didn't. At our church, prayer meetings were held daily in one form or another.

One day, the family was called in to see him, as he was that sick. However, there was no real treatment, because there was no diagnosis, so nothing also to withdraw. All they could do was watch and wait.

One doctor came across a journal article. ONE journal article. Nothing more than a 'case history' of an unusual patient. There was nothing amazingly similar, except unexplained coma following neurosurgery. The doctor suggested that they try the treatment - it was a very simple procedure of injecting the patient's own blood into their spinal column. An autologus blood patch. There was nothing to suggest it would work. They had no reason to think that it could work. But this man was dying.

They tried it, and within half-an-hour he was awake, a little after that sat up, and recovered almost completely, to the extent that he is still our pastor and preaches each Sunday.

Now, I call that a miracle. Who could imagine of all the journal articles, the doctor found that one? Who could imagine that of all the random information, this would stick out? Who could imagine that they would try something that really didn't make any sense? Who could imagine that it would not only work, but work so spectacularly?

In fact, the doctors in charge of his care still couldn't explain it afterwards..they were just very glad to see that it had worked.

Some of you will say 'well doctors are trained to do that, etc.' You're completely right. But I think that's part of God's work too

[loveandkids]

hello mn i feel sorry for the littel girl ,but this is not a reason for your conclusion. million of people die and im sure theire relatives do pray for them with a good faith god is far above every creature and he listen to all of his creature does not mean he is not there if he does not answer all the prayers.i cannot make you beleive in god in a few sentences but the miracles of god are here and all around us .god has not create all this this for nothing ,this life is nothing compare to the life life after death it sound crazy yes but this is the true. if we beleive or not this is our problem .all i know is that we all going to die and we are all going to live again and we are going to be judjed by god and the winners go to paradise and the loosers go to hell. all young girls and boys and we go to paradise if they die before they grow up.hope all the beleivers understand my message .god is great

[JustSpiro]

That's a great story Lougle!

[ginmakesitallok]

In the past when people didn't understand what the sun was, where we came from, how the body worked they made up stories to answer the unknown questions. Lots of different peoples made up lots of different stories - christianity is just one of these groups of stories - Roman/Greek myths are others, as are teh beliefs of Hindus/Muslims/etc etc. Faith helps people make sense of stuff that doesn't make sense. Gradually we have come to understand what the sun is, where we've come from and how the body works - so what was believed as faith has come to be a metaphor. There are still things which don't make sense to us, and (because we inherently look for sense) some people still retain faith to fill this gap. Some of us believe that there isn't necessarily sense in death, in life - that these things just are, these things just happen. They happen because as Annie says we are just a blink of an eye (or less) in the cosmos.

Some people don't need belief in a God anymore, some people still do.

Thus endeth this lesson according to Gin

[CrikeyOHare]

"The whole point of faith is that it is a belief where there is no proof." Exactly what makes it so irrational. It's presented as some kind of virtue, when actually it's nothing more than an excuse for believing whatever you want.

If I said I had "faith" that George Clooney was sending me telepathic messages through the cinema screen, I'd be locked up, or at least medicated. But, because it's a long dead Jewish man listening to our thoughts, it's given a credibility it doesn't deserve.

@Lougle So where does "faith" come from then? A gift from God? Why has he given it to you & not me? Are you more deserving? Faith is hope & need mistaken for knowledge.

And I have evidence that modern medicine is amazing. - while you have none whatsoever that any god exists or ever has. This is why anecdotes such as yours mean nothing at all.

[JustSpiro]

I think that's a bit harsh Crikey.

I'm sure stories such as Lougle's mean an awful lot to the people involved and though who are inspired by or draw comfort from them, however misguided you may think they are.

It's all just belief and opinion at the end of the day - I don't see why those who don't believe have to be so enraged by those that do when it has no effect on them personally one way or the other.

[gelatinous]

crikey the point I'm making is that strange inexplicable things do appear to happen sometimes and how people choose to rationalise them is their own business. I don't subscribe to miracles myself, and wouldn't waste my time considering whether or not the cat had found its way home unassisted or not, but this thread is about proof and I maintain that it's something that I can't prove either way (moreso with rather less mundane events).

[CrikeyOHare]

Just Harsh? Why? It's perfectly true, I'm afraid. If people's beliefs are so fragile that they're going to get upset by a stranger like me pointing out the enormous great holes in their logic, then perhaps they should not be posting them on a public internet forum.

I'm "offended" by the way God is given credit for the hard work and dedication of doctors (under whose watch that coma man would presumably died without "god") but I'm not going to get all distraught about it.

Gel Well, yes - it's completely their own business. But if they're going to post such events as "proof" of God, then it's reasonable for someone else (in this case me) to point out that, actually, by any reasonable definition of the word, that's not "proof" at all.

Oh, and I'm not "enraged" - and I haven't seen any rage from anyone at all on here. I'm taking part in a discussion. I thought.

[CrikeyOHare]

Sorry - a few grammar fails there.

[gelatinous]

The OP was claiming the absence of a miracle was 'absolute proof' there was no god rather than that a miracle was 'absolute proof' there was one.

'absolute proof' is a very difficult thing indeed to verify (if not impossible) for these sort of claims.

[Chelc100]

Death and Religion seem to bring out the worst in people though - why can't people show tolerance? An atheist shouldn't be preached to and a religious person should not be called names for having faith in something that is VERY REAL to them.
Surely everyone can believe in what they want without "enraging" anyone by showing respect in other peoples opinions? Discussing is nice, arguing and preaching aren't.
Although I only agree with some of what you said Crikey I do like your opinion. :)

[JustSpiro]

This is why anecdotes such as yours mean nothing at all

Sorry, but I think that's harsh, and frankly quite rude.

And of course there is hard evidence of the wonders of medical science, and those involved should get all the credit they're due - that doesn't make it necessary to disparage another individual's personal beliefs.

[BrianButterfield]

"Who could imagine of all the journal articles, the doctor found that one?" - but I would argue that, of course, he wasn't reading all the journal articles. They are online and searchable. Great news for the pastor, and a wonderful piece of research work on the doctor's part, but no miracle.

[CrikeyOHare]

Well, yes - strictly speaking, you're right. Only in maths are there absolutes.

But when you're having a discussion about anything at all in the every day world, some things are taken as a given. I am prepared to say that I have absolute proof that my DS is snoring in his bedroom right now. Of course, I don't. He could be a figment of my tortured imagination - unlikely, but not impossible.

We also don't actually have absolute proof that the Earth orbits the sun, but we have lots of evidence that it does, and most people would consider it "proved".

Seeker defined the God she was disproving. And showed, not for the first time, that the death of a child that's been prayed for is wholly incompatible with the existence of the Christian God. Sheer logic proves, pretty conclusively, that omniscience, omnipotence & omnibenevolence cannot exist in one being (as Christianity defines their god) at all - and certainly not in the kind of world & universe we exist in.

[CrikeyOHare]

Spiro I'm not being rude. I'm explaining that anecdotes, in the absence of any evidence at all, ARE meaningless in a discussion discussing "proof" of God.

Why is it that believers are perfectly free to wander around claiming that the creator listens to their thoughts & alters the laws of physics just for them, and we all have to be polite & respectful - but the moment an atheist opens their mouth and says "ahem" we are rude, shrill & strident!!!

For the record, and lets be very very clear....I 100% support the right of people to have their faith in whatever makes sense to them. It's not my business & I would hate to live in a society where people were dictated to on what they could and couldn't believe.

But in a discussion about PROOF of God, it would be entirely wrong of me not to make the completely correct & logical point that anecdotes are not proof, and therefore pretty meaningless in a PROOF kind of way.

[CrikeyOHare]

And Clec I agree with everything you say right up until the "afterlife" bit .

[Chelc100]

Well each to their own :) no one has proved an afterlife does or doesn't exist yet so I hoping that maybe there is one

[seeker]

And with reference to lougle's anecdote- if you google autologous blood patch, you get thousands of hits. Why on earth is that story being cited as a miracle? A food doctor did some research. Well done him/her. What's god for to do with it?

Oh and why is any questioning called bitter, or strident or vitriolic or any other perjorative adjective? More attempts to shut down debate. I assume.

[CrikeyOHare]

And, just to add....I do get very when I get told off (as I very often do) for "disparaging" someone's PERSONAL beliefs.

If they are so PERSONAL, what are they doing on a public forum? Shouldn't people keep PERSONAL things to themselves? Isn't that what PERSONAL actually means?

[missymoomoomee]

I haven't read most of this thread but what you have is an opinion, not proof. My son and daughter both died, despite prayers and downright begging from me I will never understand why, or what reasons God had but I HAVE to believe there was some sort of plan or reason. Fair enough if you don't believe, but your opinion is no more valid than mine, I would never spout that I have proof God does exsist because I don't and never will, just as you don't and never will have proof either.

[CarrotWithaTwist]

It doesn't prove that God doesn't exist and it doesn't prove that he's evil. He might just be busy saving a million other little girls. Or it might be that he's just having a rest, I've heard he does that once a week. Or maybe he's off creating another planet full of people or possibly he missed the important message about saving an innocent little life because it was drowned out by the noise of several billion people praying they'd win the lottery.
Life is cruel but that's no proof one way or another.

[garlicnuts]

Vis medicatrix naturae, Lougle, which doesn't conflict with religious faith, and is in fact the principle behind the blood patch (if I understand correctly).

But the miracle of finding the article's inspiration? It's a miracle of sorts, yes - the miracle of the unconscious mind in humans. Therapists taught me to go into a bookshop and 'follow my nose' to the books that would help me. If you have misplaced something on the house, write a note asking "Where can I find the [thing]?" and put it under your pillow when you sleep. Chances are you'll find the thing next day. In major disasters, there are always people who just 'know' the way to safety, even if it goes against expert advice.

Magic or miracle? Neither. It's the absolute brilliance of a biological computer, which retains every single bit of information it has ever encountered and can retrieve any scrap when it's really needed. That's miracle enough for me :)

[garlicnuts]

You're making a great effort, seeker ... these threads always go the same way, don't they? :(

There is an invisible unicorn in my house. Wanna come see?