I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

[seeker]

Because that is the basis of Christianity.

[garlicnuts]

Thank you for starting this thread, seeker, though I'm sad that your OP raises painful questions for MNers whose children have died. I am sorry for such an tremendous loss.

I'm with AnnieL and technodad. Our lives are just accidents borne of accidents; particles of elements, unthinking and unfeeling, coming together and drifting apart. I do understand the need to feel there is purpose - ordained by a supernatural being, programmed into the universe, or whatever - and continuity. But there is no evidence of such purpose. The harder we look, scientifically and spiritually, the more clearly we see ... chaos. There is continuity. Nothing in our universe is ever destroyed. The particles of which you are made were once in other things: birds; oceans; planets; and will be again. We are literally made of star dust. This much is proven and, to me, it's so amazing that I don't need unproven beliefs. That also means I don't need to believe in 'purpose' beyond the will of currently living things, which probably makes me a kind of existentialist.

I kind of think it's a waste to consider this life transferable. If it is not all I have - the only time I am to exist - then might I value it less? Appreciate it less keenly?

I do believe in prayer. I don't believe it can affect external events, but it is a form of meditation. It can put us more in touch with our inner selves and it can provide us with guidance - from our inner selves.

This has taken ages to write and I probably sound like a twat! Looking forward to reading other posts :)

[Tee2072]

No. You don't. You can't prove a negative.

[seeker]

Will somebody answer my question? Why did God specifically say he would answer prayers and then never actually do it?

[CrikeyOHare]

"Absence of evidence is not proof."

Indeed not, strictly speaking. But an absence of evidence when you might reasonably expect to find some, is pretty good evidence of absence.

If I said I had an elephant in my house - and you visited and found a) no elephant b) no elephant footprints c) no elephant dung & d) a nice,, neat living room, not one messed up by an elephant, it would be reasonable to conclude that I did not have an elephant in my house.

Prayer doesn't work. Several studies have shown this - one that was commissioned by a Christian organisation who had to concede that prayer does not make any difference.

[CrikeyOHare]

And if prayer does not work that must mean that the whole Christian faith falls apart - since Jesus expressly said that it would. So, Jesus was either a liar or a fallible, misquoted, fully mortal human being (if he existed at all, which is by no means certain).

[amillionyears]

can God not answer as yes,no maybe,wait etc?

[CrikeyOHare]

.....it's so amazing that I don't need unproven beliefs

^^ Exactly my thoughts too.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" (Douglas Adams).

[CrikeyOHare]

"can God not answer as yes,no maybe,wait etc?"

Pray to a tea pot and you'd get the same result.

[amillionyears]

If God or Jesus reappeared tonight,Im guessing a lot of people still wouldnt go along with it all.

[gelatinous]

Lots of people think he does answer prayers seeker. There are sick children that recover - do you think nobody prayed for any of them? There are many accounts of christians who believe their prayers have been answered.

[JustSpiro]

I have had prayers answered in the past, but I can understand how you are feeling OP.

Friends of ours lost their 6yo DS three years ago after a 2yr fight with leukaemia.

My lovely best friend and her DH have just discovered they may never conceive, whist every day my work brings me into contact with people with numerous children that they treat like shit.

I am really struggling with my faith at the moment and have been for some time to the extent that I stopped going to church completely a few months ago. I wouldn't say I don't believe any more but I certainly don't feel the same way...

..and I really miss it tbh .

[GhouliaYelps]

I was sadly prompted by the news sort on
The moors murderers today to read some articles on the crimes. My first thought was that a loving God can simply not exist and allow that to happen.
What I completely fail to grasp, is how some humans can live wonderful
Lives with no tragedy and others suffer mercilessly. Prayer has no bearing neither does living a "good" life or being an jonorable person. Unless of course this means you will be rewarded in heaven.
I suppose, in the catholic religion that I was brought up in, the sermon on the mount would explain how our good feeds and suffering and paid back to us in the afterlife where we live with God. But is this fair enough?

[GhouliaYelps]

Stupid predictive text
Good deeds!

[seeker]

There has never been a prayer answered that couldn't not just as easily have happened without prayer. If people pray for things that are impossible by the laws of nature they are not answered. It's all very well to say "I prayed, and my missing cat came home" Well, my missing cat came home and I hadn't prayed.

And God specifically said that "faith can move mountains"

[amillionyears]

You seem to know an awful lot already.What is your background in this,if you dont mind me asking?I havent been on one of these threads before,I dont think.Is one of your parents a vicar?

[seeker]

No. But I am a very well educated middle aged woman. I was educated to know about faith as part of being a well rounded individual.

[garlicnuts]

That was a curious question, amillion. Has education changed so much that people don't get a thorough overview of religion these days?

[CrikeyOHare]

Seems distinctly odd to me that "God" is only willing to perform miracles that don't actually fit the definition of "miracle" at all.

"God cured my Auntie Vi of breast cancer". Was God, was it, not the highly trained, skilled, educated doctors then?

Strange too that people throughout the ages have prayed to God to cure them of whatever illness they had (and usually died anyway) - but God's cure rate has risen in line with that of modern medicine!

If God makes a decapitated person's head grow back, that would impress me. But we all know that won't happen, because actually God doesn't perform miracles at all - and that WOULD be a miracle.

[missmapp]

But God doesnt change the course of life or death, he helps us cope with what it brings- we pray for the strength to cope, for people to be given the guidanve they need - it is only natural to pray for what we want too, but this isnt what we recieve.

[Chelc100]

I'm a pagan and believe when it's your time - that's it, off to the afterlife we go.... No matter what age or whether you're good or bad. However although death is sad her life should be celebrated :(

[AnnieLobeseder]

Itsjustafleshwound - "My religion gives me the faith and courage to know I can face anything"

Well, my faith in myself gives me the courage to know I can face anything. I hate the idea that I need to be dependent on some external universal force to give me the strength to live through whatever the laws of statistics throw at me.

I'm with garlicnuts - we have this one life, so short, just a blink in the cosmos. A child dying is really no shorter than a full adult life in cosmic terms, so why would the universe notice or care. We need to take our lives by the balls, live each minute, love those around us as fiercely and as fully as we can because the cosmos sure won't do it for us.

[seeker]

"But God doesnt change the course of life or death, he helps us cope with what it brings- we pray for the strength to cope, for people to be given the guidanve they need - it is only natural to pray for what we want too, but this isnt what we receive"
So there is no point in praying for healing, then?
Biblical references please? Oh, and Jesus changed the course of life and death- allegedly. Why can't God?

[expatinscotland]

I agree Clec. But I find myself becoming more of a Spiritualist person with pagan beliefs as well, if that makes sense.

[gelatinous]

I've read many christian texts in which the authors claim to have witnessed or experienced miracles that are not explicable by modern medicine. Unfortunately of course there are also such cases among people of other religions or no religion too, but none the less, I can't prove that god did or didn't intervene in any of them or indeed that the cat that found its way home wasn't guided by the almighty either. The fact that an event might have happened by chance doesn't prove that it did.