I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

[Lougle]

Seeker, Expat, Cote, Bartlett, and anyone else I've missed:

I just want to say that whether you believe in God or not is irrelevant. Either way your lives and worlds have been ripped apart by the devestation of losing someone you love.

I don't think it's of any benefit for us to sit and argue out the existence of God. I also don't think that trite statements about God's wisdom, greater good, only him knowing, etc., are useful. We only say it because we don't understand it ourselves.

I don't understand. I firmly believe God is alive. I firmly believe that he loves each and every one of us. But how I put that alongside my knowledge of world events and events close to home? I don't know how.

I prayed for Aillidh. I had hope that she could survive, but my nursing knowledge told me that it was unlikely. Expat, you hit the nail on the head (of course, you would - you are her mother) - she was so tired. She was so unwell. Would 'pulling through' be enough to actually save the girl you knew? I don't think so

I don't think it is a problem to start a thread like this either. The God I believe in is quite strong enough to take some criticism. It's just so sad that you've had to experience the pain that you have, and that you are still having it.

[chipmonkey]

But according to seeker, there is no God. So who is it she is saying gave that reassurance?

[amillionyears]

CoteDAzur,dont know.

[Lougle]

This thread isn't about defending a God a poster doesn't believe in. It's about pain, loss, tragedy and all that goes with it. What is the point of arguing with someone when you can see how much they hurt? Their hurt scores far higher on the priority list than an academic debate on the burden of proof.

[bionicmummy]

if there is a god, and he let everyone live, there'd be a scenario similar to Torchwood, Miracle Day.

[chipmonkey]

What, because seeker is upset that a child in her town died? And the child is the child of Christian parents?
Lougle, my child died.
And I certainly wouldn't want some atheist coming on a board, claiming that her death was the proof that God doesn't exist.
I imagine that the child's parents wouldn't either.

[CoteDAzur]

"And what is a belief "system"? "

You would know it as "religion".

[technodad]

Chipmonkey said: I don't feel there is any onus on me to prove anything.

Maybe there is no onus on you as an individual (unless you personally try to convert people to your religion), but there is an onus on the religious organisations themselves if they are given state funding to teach their belief to the nation's children!

[amillionyears]

seeker,why dont you tomorrow or next sunday or whenever,pop along to your nearest church,whatever the denomination is.If that one doesnt suit/you dont like the vicar or whatever,the next sunday try the next nearest and so on.I would have thought,after about 6,you would find one that you could put up with.You are not going to agree with all of what anyone says,my guess is that no one does.
It might be easier to take a friend along as well?

[expatinscotland]

'Would 'pulling through' be enough to actually save the girl you knew? I don't think so '

We will never know. It wasn't meant to be or what happened would not have. All people have a set period of time for their life on this Earth and that was hers. There is no 'fairness' in this life but in the spirit life, IMO, there is peace if that is what you want. Death is the destiny of all of us, everyone is terminal. Part of what makes it so hard for many is that they refuse to accept this, see it as inherently unfair, which to me seems a waste of energy. Do you not want to one day be free of the pain and suffering of this life, for good? I do. That is what spirituality offers me.

I can become bitter and angry about her death, as seeker is about this child's, I sometimes do, it's a natural response to such a catastrophic loss, but it won't bring her back or make me a better mother to our two remaining children.

As the Spiritualist Anne Gehman says, 'Prayer is talking to God and meditation is listening to God.'

Talking isn't a bargain or a quid pro quo.

[expatinscotland]

'I now believe that children are taken in order to help those that love that child to develop spiritually. '

I disagree with this, having met some extremely spiritual people who were so before they lost their child. And, quite often, the death of a child leads to the opposite in their loved ones - I've known many who fell apart and who did not live long after their child died, or who did in abject misery. My mother has a very dear friend, now terminally ill with cancer age 63, whose 6-year-old son drowned almost 40 years ago. Her life has been 40 years of some of the most abject misery, spiritually, I've ever known. Pure torture.

I've know the parents of several children who went missing, were murdered or killed in accidents who split up and have led chaotic, sad lives since then or took their own lives.

It's just that their child died.

Their number was up.

There's no reason for it at all anymore than there is to anyone else's death.

To me, it's not the end, and it's not for us to know why, although I do believe it's possible for those on the other side to communicate why if they can or chose, or to pass on other messages. Or not.

[expatinscotland]

I'm actually rather insulted at the idea that my child died a horrific death to help me spiritually. How simplistic and condescending! Implies the parents are somehow spiritually less mature than everyone else in the planet who hasn't sustained such a loss - patently untrue. Like telling the parents of children born with special needs they were 'blessed' and 'given' such a child to teach them somehow or because they were special themselves.

Not true at all.

It just is, like fires and natural disasters and spells of poor weather.

[expatinscotland]

I do get a lot of 'your child is now an angel.' Um, no she is not. Angels are spiritual beings who never inhabited a corporeal body on this Earth and died.

[Itsjustafleshwound]

This is how I see things ...

To have God in your life doesn't mean you will be sailing on a boat without a storm, it means having a boat no storm can sink.

My religion gives me the faith and courage to know I can face anything. It doesn't give me a get out of jail free card, but the support and comfort I have got from my faith makes it so much easier.

Might not eplain why the girl was taken

[headinhands]

Runningupthathill. According to that book there must be a lot of children who are 'ready to pass on' born in third world countries. Just chance?

[seeker]

Runningupthathill- that is the single most offensive thing I have ever seen posted on mumsnet. Expat- I apologise for starting the thread that prompted it - would you like me to ask for it to be deleted?

[MagicLlamaStrikesBack]

Myself and DS1 (8) belive in God. DS2 (7) is a little more sceptical

When my cousins DD died at 7 days old after being in the Neonatal unit, DS2 asked why God had let her die, I had to answer him honestly that I didnt know and that it wasnt something I understood.

DS1 told him, "it is Gods job to care for us, and sometimes that means making yucky picks, like when we had to let Floppy (our rabbit) go to sleep forever, we didnt want to and it wasnt good, but we loved floppy and it was the right thing to do. God loves Izzy and he doesnt want her to go to sleep forever, but if God has let it happen, then it was to stop her hurting"

I was a bit amazed

[expatinscotland]

No, I think it's food for thought, seeker. People have the right to believe what they wish so long as it harms none.

[RunningUpThatHill]

I am so so sorry it was only a recent idea that I obviously hadn't thought about properly

Please report it for me I will too

So so so so sorry

[expatinscotland]

I'd actually like to know who wrote this book.

[teahouse]

OP...why not go for a different God. The Hebrew God is not the same as the Christian one...just read Job.

[BigBoobiedBertha]

Who is to say that the prayers aren't answered in a way? As I understand it, God heals but that isn't necessarily the same as curing which is the job of doctors. He may have answered these people's prayers by helping them to cope (maybe even if it doesn't feel that way) and to be comforted by knowing that their child has gone to a 'better place'. It may also have helped the child too to have everybody's thought focussed on them and to know that people care.

Ultimately we all die and, if the Christians are right, then death is not to be feared and is a release from the pain and suffering of being alive in this world so prayers that ask for cures are a bit futile really. You can only pray for strength to deal with whatever life chucks at you.

The child's death proves nothing but of course the OP knows that really if she has engaged her logical brain at all. Proving something isn't true is impossible. You can only prove a truth and make assumptions about remains unproven.

[seeker]

There is a lot of evidence that there is no God. And none that there is. So logically, the sensible thing to say is that it is as certain as it is possible to be that there is no God. If things were to change- if more evidence was to emerge- then that position might change.

[mummysmellsofsick]

Why do people think God is good and doesn't want us to suffer? Suffering and love go together sometimes.