I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

seeker Is it actually the basis of Christianity that God is good and doesn't want us to suffer? I know it's a widely held belief but the old testament God isn't like that, and I'm not sure I can think of anything in the new testament that says God is good. John 1. seems to say God is everything... Can anyone help me with specific bible references?

Amillion:

Do you believe that those who don't worship the christian God are likely to go to hell?

Do you agree that God is all-powerful and all-loving?

If so, why would he send billions of perfectly nice people who've grown up buddhist or muslim or any other religion, who've never been exposed to christianity or who have been taught by everyone they know that the christian god is false, to spend eternity suffering in hell when they die?

Actually the above question is addressed to all christians really, I don't mean to pick on you amillion.

MMMarmite - liberal Christians would be likely to answer a) no and b) yes to your questions.

I'm very pleased we live in a society where we are free to believe in anything we want to.

I'm pleased that some people take great comfort in believing in God (any kind).

However, it astounds me that people do actually believe in any kind of God - especially one who allows small children to die 'because he has a plan' - fucking awful plan if that's the case.

The idea of a good and loving God showed up with Jesus - along with the notion of Hell for those who don't love him back. Neither of those concepts existed in the OT.

Amillion Could you please try to answer my question. What can a Christian do with God on their side that an atheist can't? What can Christian organisations do that secular ones can't?

technodad,the "evidence" for Christians is the bible.I personally have an NRSV bible.The King James is seen as a good translation,but personally I find it has so many ole worlde words,that I cant understand it much.

How do I know my belief is true,is what I think you are saying.When you do things that are in the bible,and they happen as it says in the bible,that is some,a bit, of how I know it is true.So for instance,the book of proverbs is full of wise sayings,and if you do some of those things,it turns out like the bible says it will.

I personally have a bit of a problem with science.Some scientists,it seems to me,change their minds.And can be quite often.So,it seems to me,science can be based sometimes on shifting sands.

As for going to court,who would decide who wins the case.it would have to be human beings.And all of us human beings are flawed,have failings,and ultimately die.

I will pray,I have prayed garlicnuts.And we all have a spirit as far as I know.

technodad,I think I may have jumped past some of your posts.For some reason,I find them quite difficult to answer,so I will attempt to answer them tomorrow.

MMMarmite.
I believe that most of the people who havent given their lives to God before they die will go to Hell.Unfortunately and horribly yes.Which is very painful to write.I believe,and I think most Christians do ,that there are exceptions.Children and young people up to a certain age,possibly 13,and again that is painful to write,and I dont think there is much in the bible about that.And the other exception would be people with special needs.I believe that both of these groups go to Heaven.Again,difficult to write,as I had an auntie who was always special needs.

People who have never been exposed to Christianity.Now there is something about that in the bible.I will have to look that up and get back to you about that.It is something along the lines of,no they wouldnt go to Hell if they havent heard,at some point they willl get the opportunity to hear,and decide.I think it has something to do with the End.I will look it up .I think I know roughly where it is in the bible.

Yes,God is all powerful.
The all loving bit.That is personally an area where I am a bit confused,and still learning.i would say,I will get back to you,but you might have a longer wait on that one!
I probably should say yes to that,which may indeed be the right answer.And apologies for not being sure.
Christians are always learning.Hence why there are so many old people who still go to churches.Nobody ever finishes learning about it all.

Spirit really interests me. As far as I can figure it out, 'spirit' is universal in humans and, apparently, in other great apes.

If spirit is the inner wisdom we hold, which you might say is 'god in man', it is probably genetically coded knowledge that helps us to survive, to maintain societies appropriate to our species and to rear our young. As far as we can tell, all creatures have it. Compassion, for example, has been observed in a wide range of creatures previously thought to be 'dumb', as have empathy and wiliness.

If spirit is creativity, the same applies. Possibly sheep don't have much self-awareness, but they can still solve problems and communicate. Creatures engage in sophisticated behaviours to various levels, can adapt to changed environments, use tools in new ways and some make art for art's sake.

If spirit is personality - it's the individual character, made up of genetic inheritance plus experience. The personality is unique. It dies when the brain dies. The other qualities, though, are passed along genetically if the individual reproduces. So, in a way, the 'spirit' is immortal as long as there is life. But the personality is the product of a unique set of circumstances, and lives only once.

I find this amazing! But it might not be what religious followers mean when they say 'spirit'.

Thanks amillionyears

Out of interest, what is it about my questions that make them so difficult to answer?

As I remember it (long time ago since I read it) The Selfish Gene says there is no altruism and therefore no compassion in any species, just a drive to ensure that the genes live on. On that basis I doubt very much that the spirit is genetically coded, not if we do believe that people are capable of compassion which I have to say I think they are. I don't go with the Selfish Gene theory on that level.

CrikeyoHare,is that right that Hell is not mentioned in the Old testament.I didnt know that.I have never thought about it before.
The "good and loving God " is in the Old Testament.All over it tbh.But there is a lot of justice meated out with it.Which make the Old testament more difficult to read than the New testament,imo.

Christians on there own,or in organisations,with God on their side,can alter things if God approves.But it can look as if it would have happened anyway.So Christians are praying for disasters to stop,wars to cease etc.But everything is ultimately Gods timing and Gods choice.If all the Christians were taken out of the world,my guess is that the world would be an even more scary place.

No, I think you're right seeker that there cannot be an omnipotent and beneficent God. I love the writings of Lionel Blue (a rabbi who's often been on Thought for the Day) anyway, he came to the same conclusion I think when reflecting on the horrors of the holocaust. There could perhaps be room for a more human God who makes mistakes just as we all do - it can't be easy creating and running the world - especially once he/she created us humans

But I think there's still a lot to be said for faith - though I tend to see it now as a human creation - a different way of expressing truth through sacred story that is valued and shared by a community. I think "story" is very important in our lives.

I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of this little girl you knew seeker, and also for her family. I hope those around them will be able to offer some comfort in the coming days and years in whatever way is best and true for them x

technodad,I have actually no idea.It could be that I find the language you use quite difficult to understand.I suspect you are more intelligent than me,so I have to almost triple think about what you mean and are trying to say.Its probably not you,it is probably me.

I don't believe in Hell. A lot of Christians believe that there is no hell, it is either heaven or nothing, which I suppose to a Christian would be hellish because they expect to live for eternity at the right hand of God or whatever their view of heaven is. To anybody that didn't believe, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. I can't see why any non-Christian would be worried about being sent to Hell and I can't see how that would make anybody believe. No matter what the threat, if you don't believe you don't believe do you? You can't make anybody have faith with threats.

I love that my dd decided, when she was about 6 and her granny was dying, that every person went wherever they believed they would go after they died.
Her granny believed in heaven and so is probably looking down on us all even now - can just imagine that ! Whereas when her dear old Mum passes away (that'll be me .. no plans just yet !) she will be happy just to "Rest in peace"

I've never heard anyone come up with such a wise theory .. especially not a 6 year old ! But I love it !

garlicnuts said: Spirit really interests me. As far as I can figure it out, 'spirit' is universal in humans and, apparently, in other great apes.

This is a really interesting subject. Defining spirit is really subjective I suppose, but you could argue if an animal were to exhibit superstitious tendencies, then it might have a spirit (just like us humans). This sort of behaviour occurs in many different animals.

Skinner famously put pigeons in a box (now called a Skinner Box), with a device that released food when the pigeon pecked a plate (which the pigeon duly did because of it's ability to learn cause and effect). Skinner then introduced food randomly to the birds to see what they would do. The birds then exhibited random superstitious behaviour, copying the act it was doing when the food arrived (e.g. frantically pruning one wing or looking over one shoulder (do pigeons have shoulders... ?)).

I suppose the behaviour in the pigeon is not significantly different to that of a tennis player who always takes the ball from the same ball boy at Wimbledon. Arguably it is also very similar to the act of praying, other than the fact the pigeons can't tell others and write books about it!

I don't have superstitious tendencies. Does that mean I don't have a spirit?

Your pigeon story just proves that pigeons are not very smart and neither are superstitious people.

Ah, I think the pigeon story shows that pigeons and humans, and all other animals, look for patterns to explain, make sense of, and predict the world around them. That's not stupid ... it could be one definition of intelligence ?!

It demonstrates the instinctual nature of superstition very nicely though doesn't it.

Yes, and therefore realising that faith is very widespread in human experience (throughout many times and places) I feel we should more embrace it rather than try to rise above it - even if we recognise it as a human creation and seek to do without the more supernatural aspects of belief.

Yes, and therefore realising that faith is very widespread in human experience (throughout many times and places) I feel we should more embrace it rather than try to rise above it - even if we recognise it as a human creation and seek to do without the more supernatural aspects of belief.

I don't see why we should embrace something if it is not true (especially when people like Bush and Blair use it as am excuse for war).

We now know that human sacrifice is unlikely to work and it is just our superstition, why would we continue to embrace that?