God was most definitely here this evening

[Zipitydooda]

He answered my prayer. I am so sure.

This sounds a bit crazy but I am on my own with no one I can speak to about it at the moment and I had to write it down.

In what way?

One prayed for child dead. One prayed for child ok. Indication that child 2 would be ok a clock moving in a friend's house, does that sound normal to you?

What do you mean one prayed for child dead?

One not prayed for child dead.

Quite obvious she made a simple mistake. Are you focusing on the little errors rather than facing the bigger picture?

Not reading my posts anymore? Not true. You're reading my posts and cringing.

I'm assuming the op prayed for her friend's first child too?

TheFogHorn,

Once again, it seems that no one has an answer to your (completely reasonable) question.

The problem is that religious people often complain that it is impossible to have a debate with people who "live on logical principles alone" (putting the rather amusing self admission that the religious perspective is clearly illogical, to one side for now). However the simple question of why does "god" act to make a good thing happen on day A, but not act to stop a bad thing happen on day B isn't even taking on a massively complex logical argument, it is a simple question which NEEDS to be answered.

When there is no obvious evidence for something being true, the claimant needs to be the one that justifies their position, it shouldn't be for everyone else to just accept their spurious claims without evidence.

This approach is not anything to do with being atheist, but is how our entire legal system works, so why do we turn our back on this approach because religious people don't like the line of questioning?

I can't believe what has happened here

This is a topic which is (at least in part) about spirituality. Why would you turn up (with frankly astonishing speed - do some people have Faith-Dar or something? ) on a thread where someone with faith is experiencing a moment of joy and pleasure, and immediately slap it down as hard as you can? Is it really that important to make sure everyone knows what you think about the faith?! Really? You can't let one occasion pass?

Imagine if someone posted on the conception thread 'hey! At last I'm pregnant!' and someone immediately posted 'Well you're an idiot for wanting babies'.

Obviously there is immense value in robust debate and challenging views, but was this really the thread?

I will NEVER understand people's need to do this, whether they're Biblical fundamentalists or Islamists or atheists or whatever.

We can't all agree on matters of faith, and we never will, and I'm not sure that we need to.

But I'm sure we're able so spot when someone's being really quite unkind.

Incidentally, this slightly (only slightly - I'm not saying anyone on this thread was this crass!) reminds me of a row I had in the pub recently - we were talking about composers, and arguing their various benefits, and in my drunken pretentious way I waved my beer above my head and declared the Beethoven late string quartets (or something) to be 'Positively divine! I mean just DIVINE!!"

Before I knew it my atheist pal, with whom I enjoy many a robust debate (and I do mean enjoy) spun round fast enough to bust his shoulder. "Divine? Oh divine is it? Eh? DIVINE? So GOD wrote them did he? Yeah? GOD wrote Beethoven's music? Is THAT what you're saying? So no-one can create decent art without you know, the Big Bearded Sky Fairy sticking his oar in? And here's me thinking you were EDUCATED Jodie. THOUGHTFUL. Looks like I was mistaken eh? EH?"

etc. etc. etc.

Granted he was drunk. But, you know. Sometimes it's OK just to let things pass especially when religion was not actually being mentioned at the time and it was just a bloody word for Heaven's sake

JodieHarsh,

I genuinely apologise if anyone thinks that I have been unkind (I like to think that I am a kind person), however whereas your drunk friend had a pop at you when religion was not actually being mentioned at the time, the title of this thread is "God was most definitely here this evening", which is a pretty bold statement (I know you said it only "slightly" reminded you of this event, but there is quite a difference here).

Everyone on this thread has made kind remarks about the OPs friends baby, but you have to understand that some people might find the content of the first post offensive in it's own right. The assertion that the act praying is what saved this child rather than the tireless efforts of scientists and medical experts over the years is a pretty crass one.

It seems crass to you certainly. But you see, faith is intensely complex. If my Mum (who has a very strong faith) said what the OP said, what she would mean would be something like "Thank God the he guided the staff, that he gave them those skills, that we live in a time when we are privileged to have such wonderful medical intervention." Do you see what I mean? Not "It was God, and the staff had naff-all to do with it." That would indeed be crass!

(And I am absolutely sure you had no intention of being unkind. But there is something uniquely humiliating about opening yourself up sufficiently to have the courage to make a kind of faith-statement, and to have it seized upon. Some thing deserve an immediate kicking down - "God hates gays", that sort of filth - but not, I would have thought, just a gentle, genuine, heartfelt moment of faith and belief.)

However! I know we will not agree, and I don't mind that in the slightest, so in that case there's no need for me to hang around!

foghorn sorry, just to address your earlier point I have not back pedaled in any way.
I did not come on to this thread saying I believed that prayer had saved the baby. I said that some people have strong beliefs, and find prayer and their belief in god comforting and gain strength from it.

My point was never to challenge the beliefs of anyone. I was not agreeing or disagreeing with any point of view. I was pointing out that it seemed a very unkind statement to make, about the first baby dying because she didn't pray hard enough.

Irrelevant of any religion, I think when someone has experienced pain, and then gone on to receive good news, which they want to share, then it is pretty disgusting to come back with a statement like that.

I couldn't care less what you believe, I'm sure you are happy with your views. The op is also happy with hers.
You may feel the overwhelming need to put your point across, because you have a strong opinion. And yes, you have valid points. But your first statement seemed to be very crass.

It's not a case of disagreeing with what you are saying, it's just, for me, the way you said it was intended to hurt.

Jodie.....your friend verbally abusing you in public when drunk was obviously due to pent up frustration at your faith. Atheists have a lot to put up with so don't get all hoity when one of them gets upset.

Blame God for not guiding the staff, for not giving them those skills, that we live in a time when we are privileged to have such wonderful medical intervention but that he intervened and prevented the first baby from being born alive.

Can you see that your statement proves the ludicrousness of having faith in god? You cannot have it both ways. If god helped save the second baby then he must have made the first baby die. If the OP helped save the second baby with prayer then she must also have let the first baby down by not praying enough.

JodieMarsh

To be honest I think we do agree. When I first posted on this thread I was well aware that it might cause some (very minor) upset (because the OP was celebrating and the responses rained on (part of) her parade), but on balance, I think the view that god helped this child and not another does beg challenge, because it is totally spurious.

Just because something is intensely complex doesn't mean it is off limits for discussion. The statement op said was very clear and there was nothing complex about it.

Does everyone who has faith just agree carte blanche with everything that anyone else of faith believes. If I said the ghost of Elvis helped my daughter pass her exams on this board would everyone on this board who believes in a supernatural realm have to believe my claim and pat me on the back? Having previously been a church goer I know the fierce division between members of the church when it comes to what god has/hasn't done let alone different denominations or faiths so let's not make this an 'us and them' issue please because there are many people of faith who exercise critical analysis when presented with religious claims from those within their own faith.

And I am allowed to add my comments in this area as much as anyone so long as I post within the mn code. And likewise people are allowed to ignore my post. Or report if I have broken said rules.

Hope mum and baby are doing well op

How have I made any discussion impossible? In fact I can see that I haven't as the discussion has clearly gone on quite nicely.

It is not your job as an atheist to patronise those who have faith, question their intelligence ( FWIW and not that it should be relevant, I do have a much higher than average IQ) and "educate them" just as I don't believe either that it is the job of any person of faith to "educate the heathens".

The OP, I am sure, is secure in her faith. Just as others are secure in their belief that there is no God and no afterlife. I can't prove there is a God and you can't prove that there isn't.

Why anyone needed to come on to this thread and attempt to rain on the OPs parade in such a nasty way is beyond me. The thread title didn't ask for opinions on whether God was there, the OP believes he was and there's a new baby to celebrate.

I used to be an atheist. And when I was, I never felt the need to ridicule the people of my former church. What IS that about? Why such hatred and venom?

Why do you call any disagreement venom?

And again the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If I said I could read your mind it would be for me to show that I can by, well, reading your mind. It wouldn't be for you to prove I can't. It wouldn't be your responsibility.

seeker not the disagreement but the manner in which some people disagree. The OP posted a lovely happy thread title and some people just had to come in and try to spoil her happiness.

headinhands why should the OP try to prove anything? The thread title was not an invitation for a discussion. She said she believed God was there in her house, not "God was here, I double dare-ya to prove me wrong"

No. Need.

'A lovely happy thread title'. No, the news that op's friend and baby are okay is lovely. Claiming god was in someone's house (and by definition not everywhere aka in other peoples houses) is a huge claim.

No, I imagine that the OP felt that God was everywhere, including in her house.

So the op just realised that god is omnipresent? How does that relate to this particular answered prayer? Personally I find the idea of an omnipresent, omnibenevolent god passively watching people suffer untenable especially when he is sometimes moved to act.

madhairday said (on the first page of this thread):

techno: I would never, ever post a comment about the loss of a child being 'God's wish' , and don't know any Christians who would, either. In such a circumstance I have only seen messages of support and love, as it should be.

Sadly, this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1543408-I-have-absolute-proof-that-there-is-no-God shows that you are completely wrong with this statement!

Zip, if you think God was there then I believe you and am happy for you about it. I wish the baby and his/her family and friends lots of love.

Extremely poor taste to post that shit on this thread. If you want to discuss that stuff, start a thread.

What are you/s doing in religion/spirituality/etc anyway if you don't have any faith/belief? PIss off, go somewhere else, or start a thread saying 'you are all idiots and it is extremely frustrating having you idiots around' and see how it goes.

Delighted with you OP that your friend's baby is ok.

OP, wonderful news about your friend. Until you have experienced answered prayer and the presence of God so real, it's hard to believe.

Over the summer I have seen prayers not answered in the way I had hoped and I don't understand. But I've also known answered prayer.

The most memorable being a young lady who self harmed praying for peace and self acceptance. As she stood in the shower the scars on her wrist washed away to leave clean pure skin.