God was most definitely here this evening

[Zipitydooda]

He answered my prayer. I am so sure.

This sounds a bit crazy but I am on my own with no one I can speak to about it at the moment and I had to write it down.

[mrscrocoduck]

He can't have been, he was with me.

[technodad]

hopeforever,

This thread has nothing to do with the psychological benefits to the person praying. Clearly some individuals get benefit from this, much like meditation.

The ability to control the world with ones mind is proven as garbage.

[technodad]

LynetteScavo,

No, I wouldn't post if the OP's baby had died (and I never have and never will). However, as I was discussing above with madhairday, there is another thread where an atheist mother, who's baby had died, was told (by a Christian) "I now believe that children are taken in order to help those that love that child to develop spiritually."

So before you start judging my actions (especially actions which I have not made), please consider that there is a massive difference between respectful debate, and crass insensitivity.

[Hopeforever]

Interesting research was done on prayer in hospitals. People were asked if they would like to be prayed for. Some agreed, some didnot. When compared with the same number of people not prayed for, the results of how much pain was encountered post op, those in the prayed for group faired much better.

[LynetteScavo]

I never said you didn't teach your children tolerance, either.

I did say I try to teach my children tolerance.

Part of the "religious privilege"? Is that how you see it? There are certainly areas of MN I wouldn't post on.

How far would you take this attitude? If it had been the OP's own baby who had died, would you point out there is no heaven? There is a line, and I think some people crossed it on this thread. The OP may not have obviously been looking for support, but I think she would have liked some.

Anyway, I'm sure you will totally disagree.

Goodnight!

[technodad]

I never said I don't teach my children tolerance. Do all Christians teach their children the same?

Perhaps you need to read some more of my posts on MN before you form an opinion on what I stand for.

It is miserable, rude and disrespectful, IMO, to rubbish someones feelings like that, especially the OP of a thread in Philosophy/religion/spirituality.

So is this part of religious privilege - that you must have an imaginary friend (as you put it), to be allowed to post on this part of MN?

[LynetteScavo]

technodad, I see it's all about facts for you, not how a person maybe feeling.

Faith helps many people, even if some one somewhere has proven prayer doesn't work. Prayer helps many people, all over the world, of many different faiths. That is a fact.

You may think that people are just "talking to an imaginary friend" (I believe that's how atheists like to put it) but those with faith, can feel something special.

It is miserable, rude and disrespectful, IMO, to rubbish someones feelings like that, especially the OP of a thread in Philosophy/religion/spirituality.

Obviously you will disagree.

The "I won't stop until they do" attitude is hardly mature...I try to teach my children tolerance, and wouldn't be impressed if they took such a line.

[technodad]

Claiming that prayer works is identical to stating that the world is flat, since both statements are scientifically proven to be wholly untrue!

Why shouldn't people go onto creationist forums and tell them they are wrong? - they are wrong. It is not a point of opinion, it is a point of incontestable fact. On the contrary, when creationists work so aggressively against proven science, we should all be pointing out what a bunch of unthinking bell-ends creationist are.

When religious schools stop teaching children religious opinion as fact (some of whom against their parent's wishes) and when religious groups stop their discrimination and unfair privilege within society (i.e. equality for all), then I will stop telling religious people that they are incorrect when they make factually incorrect claims.

(note: I do not go on to prayer threads or threads where people need support (unless they require secular support), and I was not the first non-believer to post on this thread).

[madhairday]

I didn't really feel the need, techno, as I had already pointed out that it is not my or my friends' practise.

There will always be those who say insensitive stuff, generally in a spirit of generosity, misguided, but still, and always those who will spout rubbish. I'm for sure not denying that. I'm not one to run away and hide

[LynetteScavo]

"LynetteScavo: Every atheist who has posted on this thread has congratulated the OP and wished mother and baby well,"

I've re-read the thread, and that simply isn't true.

The world being round or flat is not quite the same as one person's personal faith.

One is physical, and the other is spiritual. I might be able to prove to a poster that the earth is not flat, but I cannot prove they have no faith. Some atheists are very keen to point out faith is pointless as God doesn't exist.

Some people need to believe in God.

If someone else needed to believe the earth was flat, for what ever reason, and there was a "the earth is flat" topic then I wouldn't continually post they are wrong

I don't make a habit of going on to the forum of creationist and pointing out I disagree with them.

The OP posted that she was sure God had answered her prayer. She was having a lovely moment. Why stomp on it?

[technodad]

madhairday: so I take your silence as acceptance my point then? I presume you were just going to ignore the evidence you don't want to see again and hope it goes away?

LynetteScavo: Every atheist who has posted on this thread has congratulated the OP and wished mother and baby well, why is this miserable or bitter. Why can't someone be told if their conclusion is flawed or illogical without risk of people being needlessly upset?

If there was a post where someone stated that the world was flat and that the Earth was at the centre of the universe, then I presume you are saying that it would be offensive to point out that this isn't true?

[madhairday]

Hope :) :) Oh how wonderful.

[Hopeforever]

Yes, I was Eaglewings but wanted a new start after my miscarriages. That week at NW I got to grieve for our lost babies ( not hard when surrounded by all those babies ) then managed to conceive at NW nobody in RL knows yet other than DH.

[madhairday]

Hope are you a namechanger?

[LynetteScavo]

Why do atheists even bother to post on such threads?

It seems such a miserable, bitter thing to do.

OP, if you felt God was with you this evening, then he surely was.

[Hopeforever]

Yes I was at NWN&E. God did some amazing things that week :)

[technodad]

It was said without any doubt at all. The worst post was by RunningUpThatHill on Sat 18-Aug-12 at 18:21:32. This was deleted at the posters request, but the impact of the post was reflected in the bereaved parent (expatinscotland) post, on Sat 18-Aug-12 at 18:32:37.

If you read the thread in detail, there are loads of comments where people say things which effectively mean "it is gods way". Just because they wrap it up in other words, it does not change the intent, or the meaning, and it does not make it any less crass or insensitive!

[madhairday]

Hope were you at NW by any chance? I talked to the girl that happened to....it was awesome :)

Techno...have just waded through that thread, but have to admit to not reading every post - did someone really say such a thing? That it was 'God's wish?' If so - but I stand by my contention that I do not know someone who would say something like this.

[technodad]

Why is it poor taste?

[springydaffs]

YOH!!

[Hopeforever]

OP, wonderful news about your friend. Until you have experienced answered prayer and the presence of God so real, it's hard to believe.

Over the summer I have seen prayers not answered in the way I had hoped and I don't understand. But I've also known answered prayer.

The most memorable being a young lady who self harmed praying for peace and self acceptance. As she stood in the shower the scars on her wrist washed away to leave clean pure skin.

[springydaffs]

Extremely poor taste to post that shit on this thread. If you want to discuss that stuff, start a thread.

What are you/s doing in religion/spirituality/etc anyway if you don't have any faith/belief? PIss off, go somewhere else, or start a thread saying 'you are all idiots and it is extremely frustrating having you idiots around' and see how it goes.

Delighted with you OP that your friend's baby is ok.

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

Zip, if you think God was there then I believe you and am happy for you about it. I wish the baby and his/her family and friends lots of love.

[technodad]

madhairday said (on the first page of this thread):

techno: I would never, ever post a comment about the loss of a child being 'God's wish' , and don't know any Christians who would, either. In such a circumstance I have only seen messages of support and love, as it should be.

Sadly, this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1543408-I-have-absolute-proof-that-there-is-no-God shows that you are completely wrong with this statement!

[headinhands]

So the op just realised that god is omnipresent? How does that relate to this particular answered prayer? Personally I find the idea of an omnipresent, omnibenevolent god passively watching people suffer untenable especially when he is sometimes moved to act.