God was most definitely here this evening

[Zipitydooda]

He answered my prayer. I am so sure.

This sounds a bit crazy but I am on my own with no one I can speak to about it at the moment and I had to write it down.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Seeker, what do you believe god is?

[TheFogHorn]

At least I didn't swear.....I thought this thread was one to be tip-toed over....?

YOU QUOTING MEME^So god was there for this little one but not for the last one...or people just didn't pray enough for the first one?*

YOU: And if you don't think that is a horrible thing to say in this situation, I find that shameful.


It's the truth you hate and anyone who points it out. It is the truth that the OP must surely believe the first baby died because the man in the sky wanted it to or because people didn't pray enough. You cannot have it both ways, although you've had it both ways for long enough.

Spare a thought for atheists who have had to live side-by-side with people who cannot and will not face the truth. Do you have any idea how annoying that is? I can tell you it is as annoying for us to put up with people who hate the truth as it is annoying for you to have to be faced with it. I understand you annoyance at me....but do can you put yourself in my shoes?

I'm not just thinking about my own annoyance. I'm thinking about the child who was involved in the 'Oh my god! That is amazing! God was here!' episode. I don't think it's in the interests of young and easily impressionable minds to be exposed to that kind of supersticious fanaticism. Maybe me posting my comments will make the OP reflect and maybe be more discerning in future.

[TheFogHorn]

Zip

I'm asking you directly because you started this thread.

You are here claiming the god answered your prayers and saved your friend's baby from the same demise her previous baby suffered. That is it in a nutshell.

What I want you to try to do now is be honest.

If your praying saved this baby, does that mean the last baby died due to a lack of prayer?

[neontetra]

Describing Christians as "people who hate the truth" is not an attempt at a discussion; it is deliberately inflammatory, as well as being an odd thing to say. I've never thought that those who disagree with me must "hate truth". I don't really know what "hating truth" means.

[headinhands]

I may be wrong but OP hasn't said what god she prayed to and Foggy didn't use the word Christian.

[headinhands]

No one want to answer Fog's question then?

[lurcherlover]

I have a beautiful, healthy, funny, perfect little boy who is the light of my life. I go to church fairly regularly and every time I used to give thanks to God for my little boy.

Then I got pregnant again and had a miscarriage. I don't thank God for my little boy any more, as logic dictates that if God gave me one child, he also caused the other one to die. You can't credit God with the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. I have spoken to many Christians about this and never had a satisfactory answer - it usually boils down to "we can't presume to know the will of God" or "faith means not having all the answers". Sorry, not good enough for me.

I'm very glad the baby in this case is doing well but it has everything to do with medical science and nothing to do with God. If you think it doesn't, ask yourself this - would this baby have survived 200 years ago? Unlikely. So why wouldn't God save it then when he would now? Does God love our generation more than previous ones? He must do if he's only now sending us all these advances in medical equipment to save more lives...or did we do that all by ourselves?

[TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons]

It's a sad place where people would take a personal tragedy and turn it into something spiteful.
There's a lot of debate about the existence of god or whatever or whoever you believe in.
I love debates like that. Tbh I have no idea whether god does indeed exist, I was raised a catholic but I am not practicing and I don't even know if I truly believe in god, or the power of prayer. I guess I believe in a higher being, whatever form that takes, which is why I find religious debates so interesting to read because I am somewhere in the middle.

But it just seems to me if someone has been through a hard time and has used their belief, their prayers to get them through that then people should be respectful of that, whether they believe it or not.
Some people may think its utterly stupid which is fair enough. Everyone has a view and since no one can ever truly be proved right then everyone is allowed to have their view.

In this case, it seemed it was a very horrible thing to suggest to a person who had used their beliefs to get them through a hard time.
It seemed the wrong time and place for the debate but that's just my opinion. It felt as though compassion and kindness would have been more in order, rather than the hurtful comment did the other baby die because you didn't pray enough

[seeker]

But the op didn't say she used her beliefs to get her through a difficult time. She said her god directly intervened. There's a big difference there,

[TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons]

And fog no I don't hate the truth because I don't know the truth.
Did god save this baby and not the other? Was it all down to prayer?
Probably not. Although there is a whole other school of thought, putting positive thoughts into the universe(nothing to do with god btw) brings positive things back, so who knows.

But it's the lack of compassion that got to me.
I know it's great to have straight talking people giving their opinions and I love to read it. I wouldn't get into a religious debate with you because as I said, I don't know what I believe in, if anything.

But one of the things about straight talking is there are situations that affect people's lives, their hearts, their feelings.
And whilst you may very well be correct in what you are saying, the time and place you chose to do so seemed very unfeeling tbh. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but sometimes, even though I know I am right about something, I know it's not the moment to force my "rightness" on someone having a hard time.

That's what I found upsetting. Not the fact you was saying god didn't save this baby.

[seeker]

The op made a categorical statement. Nothing about her gaining support and comfort from her faith. She said that God moved a clock as a sign to her that her friend's baby would be OK. I really don't see an issue with challenging that.
There have been long supportive threads on here where everyone has joined in to support parents in desparate need. Those are very different from this thread.

[canistartagainplease]

Zippity- I'm touched by your good grace and concern for your friend, youve got me thinking about her as well and wanting the best outcome. I think prayer is all about directed empathy, and theres only good in that.

[headinhands]

The op is not THE mum. The op is not posting in bereavement. No one has been unkind or spiteful.

Having beliefs challenged is uncomfortable yes. I was there once. For a long time I was stuck in limbo and knew I couldn't really talk to anyone because everyone has their own agenda. I had to poke about for myself. It was a long and difficult process but reading boards and threads like these really helped because they aired opinions and beliefs in a way you can't do around the vending machine at work or at toddler group with your friends.

[neontetra]

Fair point headinhands - so it isn't just Christians who allegedly "hate truth", but all people who believe in any god at all. A lot of this hatred of truth about, isn't there?
What I've never understood is why some people with atheist beliefs seem to get so irritated and angry with people who follow a religion - why does it matter to you so much? Fair enough if they are perpetrating some great evil in the name of that faith, but if they are just going around believing something you don't, what is the problem? I'm not saying atheists shouldn't feel free to state their disagreement with religious people, but there often seems to be a lot of rage behind the statement. I don't get that.

[headinhands]

Have you not noticed the veiled and unveiled insults being levied at those without beliefs here! Spiteful, unkind and so on.

Personally I haunt these boards because I enjoy debating with people of faith. I find it fascinating. I also hate housework

[TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons]

I didn't call anyone spiteful or unkind because they do not believe in god.
I called the comment about the other baby dying spiteful and unkind in the context it was posted

[seeker]

Rage? Please will someone show me rage on this thread?

[seeker]

Oh and while you're about it, could you tell me when and where it's ok to
question Christians on their beliefs and expectation of privileged treatment without being called spiteful, a Christian basher, or as on one memorable occasion, a c**t?

[TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons]

I think it's always ok to debate. I don't think anyone should be called a c**t.
I dont think bringing the friends dead baby into it in such a manner, on a thread where the op is obviously very close to the family was very nice. But that would be the same no matter what subject was being debated.

But it's all opinion, isn't it?
I don't feel comfortable with it, not for religious reasons, just because I think it's not necessary to hurt someone by being so flippant about a subject that is emotional for the op.

[technodad]

neontetra said What I've never understood is why some people with atheist beliefs seem to get so irritated and angry with people who follow a religion - why does it matter to you so much?

One reason might be that religion is not based upon provable facts, but religious communities have unreasonable influence in many areas of life (schooling, state, etc). I am forced to put up with being surrounded by unfounded belief and the state trying to indoctrinate my children, it is not unreasonable to want to counter that with some facts and rationalism.

If we lived in a secular state and religion did not have this unbalanced influence, then I would be very happy indeed. I am very pro-choice when it comes to religion, but the state is not!

[technodad]

P.S being atheist is not a "belief", it is a complete lack of belief.

[headinhands]

These questions need to be asked. It was the op who mentioned the sad loss of her friends previous lo. How come it's flippant to ask about how god made the decision he did in the first instance but not flippant to assume one prayer got gods attention the second time.

These debates always go the same way. Pertinent questions get asked then it's a well worn path of at best, a healthy dose of esoterics or at worst the shutters come down and accusations of all nastiness get's inferred.

[headinhands]

'people who live on logical principles alone are impossible to argue with'

Brilliant!

[TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons]

Well because the op mentioned a situation that she was in at the time, which was painful for her. So to be flippant about it is hurtful.

[headinhands]

Should I set a reminder and ask her at a later date? How long to wait to make sure making alternative suggestions for what the op thinks is a miracle could not be construed as flippant. Are you really suggesting that anyone should be able to assert anything without anyone questioning the logic behind their assumption. No one has suggested what happened wasn't dreadful. No one has made light of such loss. We have made alternative suggestions for what the op believes is divine intervention. That does not detract from how pleased we are that op's friend and her new baby are doing well.