To not want to be a Muslim

[Lostagain]

Ok so I am a Muslim, have 2 dd and married dh is a convert to Islam....
Anyway from a young age I have had a strong pull towards Christianity or aspects of it. I don't believe Jesus is the son of god, but do believe he will return again etc.
Is it a cultural thing? I was born and brought up in the uk, went to a cofe school for a few years then we went to a inner city which was full of Asians- I am Asian but it was horrible, I hated it. Despite this I still sang on the school choir, certain people were horrified at the time, but my mum supported me. In my teens i went a bit religion mad and started wearing a headscarf etc- didn't last long,
i love Christmas and Easter, I sing hymms when I'm washing up i've been to a few church's in my time, funerals weddings etc and to be honest it's so peaceful there.
I have been to mosques it was ok,actually I couldn't wait to get out of there....Maybe it's a language barrier
I haven't spoken to anyone about this as it is such a big thing -changed my name on mn but sometimes I just don't want to be a Muslim. I want to bring up my children with faith and I struggle to explain the Muslim faith.

I'm sure there is the odd sentence in the above which makes sense :)

facejacker i could not care less what religion you are, let alinéa anything else, i fond it bizarre that you are stalking my other threads though

Fitrah means nature, we believe every soul has an inclination towards good and God. But as we are raised we forget this.

Neither of your children would be considered muslim, but it means children under puberty are innocent, they have no sins, they are not held accountable for there actions. They will go straight to heaven if God forbid they die, and they will also be a means for their parents to achieve heaven.

How can they be a means for their parents to acheive heaven?

Good grief! Funny how supposedly religious people can gather together on a thread to mock and condemn one another's posts!

Not a good advert for religion of any kind really is it? What's all this about forgiveness? About loving your enemies? Does that mean nothing?

I often wonder how some Christians can say the 'Our Father' in Church without a hint of hypocrisy. And that goes for the Muslims too.

I agree that religion is often confused with culture. If you strip religion down to its basics you have on the one hand, the teachings of Jesus which is all about love, forgiveness, mercy and so on. He stopped the stoning of a woman for adultery by condemning those hypocrites who were about to stone her - that's a good lesson in life. He said that no-one but the Father should judge. Listen to his message, read his teachings and I challenge you to find anything controversial or hateful about them.

I'm not well versed on Islam or the Koran and there are conflicting reports but from what I am aware, the God Allah is the same as the Christian God and so the message of love still stands.

All this thread does is to preach intolerance and judgemental attitudes.

I'm a catholic and I would quite happily distance myself from some of the so-called Christian attitudes on this thread. I'm quite sure some Muslims are shaking their heads in disbelief too.

How about you all just think before you post and realise what message you are sending out to people about religion?

As others said, if you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, God himself, then you can't be a true Christian.

You will find that there are many unanswered questions in Christianity too.

However, I do find Christianism a more compassionate religion at its core.

I was raised a Catholic and sort of became indifferent for the last 10 years or so, but have started "practising" again as I put DS in Sunday school and got him baptised this year.
I think the values that we learn and aim for are important, as well as the spiritual side. The community side is also important, if the community is about loving thy neighbour.
Even if I do have some trouble coming to terms with some more pharisistic side of it.

"They will go straight to heaven if God forbid they die, and they will also be a means for their parents to achieve heaven."

Different christian sects have different opinons on this. For example Roman Catholics see baptism as very important and certainly until recently Roman Catholics didn't believe that unbaptised infants could go to heaven.

However many christians believe that all children go to heaven because Mathew versus 13 to 15.

"Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

Jesus said, ?Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.? When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. "

I believe that there are different sects of Islam with varying beliefs just like Christianity. I think this thread shows that Christians and Muslims have a completely different mindset even if they have a fair amount in common. I imagine that it must be impossible not to absorb the cultural values of a predominately Christian country even if you live in a muslim family.

Have we scared off the orginal poster?

I can only see 2 people causing contraversy, mocking each others posts and that is facejacker and thundercat. I think you'll find everyone else has given quite good advice to op, but she's already decided she doesn't want Muslim friends because they don't understand her pov. I think she doesn't realise that it's not Islam that is her enemy it is the culture she belongs to. The cultural attitudes of the Muslims she knows are her biggest obstacle.

Having your child die is probably the biggest test a parent can go through, and we believe they will be rewarded for their suffering, and patience, and also that the child will ask for them on the day of judgement.

here is a fatwa on this topic.

islamqa.info/en/ref/21434

The reward of one whose child dies and he bears that with patience
ar - en - fr - ur - es
Share | What is the reward parents recieve for being patient and thanking Allah, when they have an infant or child die?.

Praise be to Allaah.

There are many texts in the Qur?aan and Sunnah which point to the virtue and great reward of those who are patient and state that Allaah will give them reward without measure. This includes everyone who bears with patience any calamity with which he is tested. Undoubtedly the loss of a child is one of the greatest calamities for the one whom it befalls. Whoever bears that with patience and accepts the will and decree of Allaah will have a great reward by the grace and bounty of Allaah. There follow some of these texts, which we hope will be of consolation to you in your time of calamity:

Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

?And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As- Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ?Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.?

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones?

[al-Baqarah 2:155-157]

?And Allaah loves As-Saabiroon (the patient)?

[Aal ?Imraan 3:146]

?Only those who are patient shall receive their reward in full, without reckoning?

[al-Zumar 39:10]

And there are many similar verses.

There are also many ahaadeeth, including the following:

Muslim (5318) narrated that Suhayb said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?How wonderful is the affair of the believer, for his affair is all good, and this applies to no one except the believer. If something good happens to him, he gives thanks and that is good for him, and if something bad happens to him, he bears it with patience, and that is good for him.? This has to do with the virtues of patience in general.

There are also ahaadeeth which speak specifically of losing a child. For example:

Al-Tirmidhi (942) narrated that Abu Sinaan said: I buried my son Sinaan and Abu Talhah al-Khoolaani was sitting at the graveside. When I wanted to go out he took my hand and said, ?Shall I not give you some glad tidings, O Abu Sinaan?? I said, ?Yes.? He said, ?Al-Dahhaak ibn ?Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ?Arzab narrated to me from Abu Moosa al-Ash?ari that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?When a person?s child dies, Allaah says to His angels, ?You have taken the child of My slave.? They say, ?Yes.? He says, ?You have taken the apple of his eye.? They say, ?Yes.? He says, ?What did My slave say?? They say, ?He praised you and said ?Innaa lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji?oon (Verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return).? Allaah says, ?Build for My slave a house in Paradise and call it the house of praise.??

(Classed as hasan by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 1408)

It was narrated in al-Saheehayn that there is a special reward for the person whose child dies but he bears that with patience and hopes for reward. It was narrated from Abu Sa?eed (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the women said to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ?Give us a day (to teach us),? So he preached to them and said, ?Any woman who loses three of her children, they will be a shield for her against the Fire.? A woman said, ?And two?? He said, ?And two.?

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 99; Muslim, 4786)

According to a report narrated by al-Bukhaari (1292), Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?There is no Muslim who loses three of his children before they reach the age of puberty, but Allaah will admit him to Paradise by virtue of His Mercy towards them.?

These ahaadeeth explain that if two or more of a person?s children die and he bears that with patience, then he is promised Paradise and salvation from the Fire.

Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught us a du?aa? to say at times of calamity, in which there is virtue and great reward. Muslim narrated in his Saheeh (1525) that Umm Salamah said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ?There is no Muslim who is afflicted with a calamity and says that which Allaah has enjoined, Innaa lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji?oon. Allaahumma ajurni fi museebati wakhluf li khayran minha (Verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return. O Allaah, reward me for my calamity and compensate me with something better than it), but Allaah will compensate him with something better than it.? She said, When Abu Salamah died, I said, who among the Muslims is better than Abu Salamah, the first household to migrate to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? Then I said these words, and Allaah compensated me with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

We ask Allaah to bless you with patience in the face of your loss, and to compensate you with something better. And Allaah knows best.

Also there are hadiths about miscarriage and the baby dragging the mother by the umbilical cord to jannah.

In the Musnad of Abd ibn Humayd from Muadh, the Prophet SAW : ?No two Muslims lost three children except Allah will cause the two parents to enter Paradise through the favor of His mercy toward them.? They said, ?What about two, Messenger of Allah?? He said, ?Two also.? They said, ?And one?? He said, ?[Even] the miscarried child will certainly drag its mother [and father, see below] with its umbilical cord to Paradise!?

The Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said, ?The miscarried child will pester its glorious and mighty Lord for His entering its two parents into the Fire until it is told, ?O miscarried child that pesters its Lord! Enter your father and mother into Paradise.? Then it will drag them with its umbilical cord until it makes them enter Paradise.?
Ibn Majah and Abu Yala from Ali.

And again, ?By the One in Whose hand is my soul, truly the miscarried child will certainly drag its mother with its umbilical cord to Paradise, provided one expects recompense [for SABR].?
Ibn Majah and Ahmad from Mu`adh

I dont think the op needs info on rewards for early death of a child. Smacks a bit of my religion is more rewarding than yours.

If the op is unhappy and doesn't feel connected to islam then she should seach for what does make her happy. From what she has said about her family they will love and support her.

Rainy

I think that impart is true, my culture.

I've moved away from it slowly, the only family I see on a regular basis is mum and bro and sis- that's it. I don't see any extended family, except for funerals, which there have been 2 in the past 10 years.

So maybe in my mind culture and religion go together, as I have been brought up that way, and maybe it doesn't have to be hand in hand...

cantspel it was in response to a specific set of questions asked,

firsly by reallytired about what is fitrah and what age a child is considered Muslim, and the pratical effects of that,

and then by kalskirata who asked specifically about how the death of a child could be a means to enter jannah for the parents.

I am open to constructive criticism in order to better my methods of dawah and would ask you how you feel would have been a better way to answer the questions? as obviously I dont want to be putting people off.

and actually I do think it is relevant to OP as it demonstrates the merciful, and loving nature of Allah in Islam compared to the brimstone and fire version she says she has been taught as a child.

lostagain you can make your own culture, your own family dynamics and priorities and decisions about relationships, how to raise kids, interaction with others etc. This can be seperate from your beliefs. you can be non muslim and still follow muslim culture, or muslim and follow another culture.

"So maybe in my mind culture and religion go together, as I have been brought up that way, and maybe it doesn't have to be hand in hand..."

Very true. It would be interesting to get the opinon of an ex muslim who has converted to christianity.

I think that religion shapes culture and our sub concious values. British culture is also shaped by much older religions.

There are a lot of nominal/cultural christians in the UK. Our priest told us that in the UK 70% of people claim to be christian, yet only 1% go to church every sunday and 10% go to church once a month. (I have no idea where our priest got his stats from, possibly he made them up, who knows) The Bible is also a top selling book, which very few people actually read. Prehaps the same could be said about the Quoran in the middle East.

I have no idea if there are a huge number of nominal/ cultural muslims who really have little knowledge of their supposed religion.

I have found nailak posts interesting.

I would say yes there are a load of cultural Muslims who know little about their religion and follow culture believing it to be part of their religion, or take some parts like repsect and obeying parents and twist it to mean "You have to do exactly as I say otherwise you will be punished" and men who twist it in order to abuse their wives, etc etc.

I would say it is very common. Like OP there are many many Muslims who can read Arabic, and make no attempts to understand it.

thunderbird, er, exactly what thread am I stalking you on ?!?! Your narcissism is amusing.

My comments are purely based on what you have posted in this thread-you keep accusing others of 'forcing' their views on the OP when you are doing exactly the same (and insulting others to boot).

The OP is confused about what religion she should follow. Maybe this post is indicative of the fact she should follow neither...

You two should get a room and jog on.

You are contributing nothing to this thread but hate, intolerance and judgemental attitudes.

'I am open to constructive criticism in order to better my methods of dawah'

sorry to sound narky here when you're trying to help but I would never ever ever say to a parent that the death of their child led to jannah. I had some woman enthusiastically inform me that being brain damaged and dying young would mean my child had an automatic jannah ticket. Its not comforting. So I asked her, in that case, was she praying for her kids to get brain damaged? Funnily enough she wasnt.
Its one reason why I avoid religious people!

'I am open to constructive criticism in order to better my methods of dawah'

I struggle to read your posts because I don't understand the language of your posts. Words like "fitrah", "dawah", "fatwa" are not English words and they make your posts incomprehensible to non muslims who don't speak arabic. Its a pity as you have some interesting points.

I doult any of the major religions can explain suffering in a satisfactory way. Prehaps its easier to say, "I don't know why innocent children die in horrible ways."

TheRhubarb We have both contributed to a thread thst you have only just joined, I may not like *facejacker opinions but i think you need to jog on yourself

Yup, keep sending out those Christian vibes!

Oh and see my previous message yesterday, which is when I joined the thread

Surely its possible for Christians and Muslims to discuss religion anamically on Mumsnet. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I might agree to disagree with Muslim posters, but I don't feel offended.

I think that learning about what other people believe is the route to tolerance.

I've been following this thread since I posted yesterday and I have noted with dismay some of the posts.

It's not just rudeness and intolerance that is mainly posted by two people, but other posters seem to be quite secular in their views and in the way that they post.

As Allah, Jehovah and God are one and the same you'd think there would be more to embrace than to distance ourselves from? Why choose language that no-one but your own religion understands? Why shout down other points of view?

It seems to be a case of oneupmanship and has degenerated into a competition of whose religion is best by some. Although I applaud those who are taking the time to help and understand the OP.

OP, follow your heart and do what is right for you. Religion, whilst it is governed by man will have its faults and failings. Faith however is governed by God and it is faith that you are seeking. No one religion can provide you with faith, that must come from within.

I wish you well and I hope the thread ends in general acceptance, respect and tolerance.

Personally I think there is one creator. Use any name you wish (Allah is just Arabic for God. Not a 'name'). And she wants people to be nice. As for worship, there are many ways up the mountain IMO and you choose what suits you as a person.
The Quran explicitly states 'there is no coercian in religion' and 'worship God, believe in the last day and do good' as all that you need.
The rest is props and window dressing to focus the mind. I asked a friend who is a Rabbi once about the tassel things Jewish men wear and she said they themselves are not important (although, being human, we attatch importance until the outer becomes more focused iupon than the inner) but wearing them reminded you to live with God-awareness. You might open your mouth to bitch about someone and catch sight of your tassels. Instant reminder. I'm paraphrasing of course cos when she said it it sounded all wise!
I think we'll be judged on our deeds, not whether we wore the right clothes, lit candles at the correct time etc

"It's not just rudeness and intolerance that is mainly posted by two people, but other posters seem to be quite secular in their views and in the way that they post."

I agree with you there is no place for rudeness or intolerance. However there is nothing against the mumsnet rules in discussing religion or having differing religious opinons. Ofcourse there are religious differences between Islam and Christianity and its fair for muslims and christians to discuss them.

TheRhubarb prehaps you need to step away from the thread if its upsetting you.