Can you "choose" to believe in God, if you just genuinely don't?

[aquestionwithnoanswer]

Namechanger as this is just a bit too personal.

Basically as the title says. I can't help it, I believe facts. I believe science and proof and things that I can "know."

I was raised in Christianity, can quote the Bible chapter and verse, educated about many religions, surrounded by people who have faith, but I cannot bring myself to believe in God - any God.

The thing is, I want to. For various reasons, I really want to believe in God.

Do you choose it? How can I "make" myself believe it? I certainly don't feel it. If I am honest, it all makes very little sense, it is illogical, it is not rational. My mum answers that with "that's why it's called faith!" but that is not really helpful.

How do you get there from here?

I reckon the answer is no, you can't make yourself believe. I also feel that you would be doing the wrong thing by faking it to please him. You want to spend your last moments with a loved one in a lie? I wouldn't like to think so.

All you can do is tell him your a good person and if his god's a good god he'll let you in (wherever it is he feels he'll be going) but that you can't accept something to be true that you feel isn't. I understand he'll be frightened but lying at this stage is not the way forward.

So sorry for your situation, I hope you both find peace.

What an awful situation op. I really do feel for you. I think I agree with notfluffy that if you pretend to see it his way it may eat you up to think your time together here ended with a lie, however well intentioned, and as you say you have talked about this a lot do you not think he may suss you out anyway?

Put me right if i'm wrong but are you saying that unless you both believe in the way that he does that the doors to where he believes he is going won't be open to you? I am not a christian, and struggle to understand why anyone would want to believe in a god like that. For what it's worth, i think whatever is out there is what it is regardless of what you believe, and any spiritual path is just that - a path - and that they will all take you to the same place in the end.

Maybe a promise to continue to try to find your faith is the best you can offer to him at this time?

I am so sorry to read about your situation, aquestion.

I have said on another thread recently that I don't believe that you can make yourself believe, but I do believe that - if you want to - you can create a space and invite God to fill it. I can't guarantee that it will happen for you (it did for me) but maybe, in the circs this is the best that you can promise to do (agreeing with RedMolly here, basically). It seems more honest than faking it, and yet still allows for the possibility that you may be able to believe in time.

By 'creating a space' I mean, btw, doing so actively; not just sitting back and hoping it'll happen (this is clearly not what you have been doing, I know), but going to church and joining in as much as you feel able to do (at first I struggled with the Creed, but the rest was OK), and trying to keep an open mind as much as possible. I also tried to pray by remembering people who needed help or love or whatever, and I adopted a bit of a prayer which I remembered from school, and of which I am still very fond. 'Lord help me to know you more clearly, love you more dearly, and follow you more nearly, day by day'.

I hope that this is helpful. I am thinking of you and hoping that you find peace, in whichever way works for you.

I am still here, still reading, and I appreciate the sensitivity and thought that has gone into the responses. I am struggling right now - several of you have highlighted that I am going to have to live with what I do here. As much as I want to provide any comfort I can, I just don't feel that I can lie. That's why I didn't want it to be a lie, I wanted to believe it too. I'm going to keep trying, but as of this moment, the truth is that I don't. I've "prayed" (is it actually praying if you don't really believe what you're praying to?), as discussed last night. Maybe something will come of it.

After a big talk today, we've decided on this for the time being:

He believes what he believes and accepts that he may be wrong. If he is wrong, no one is harmed by it.

I believe what I believe but am very open to the idea that I may be wrong and in fact hope that I am, even though I don't think I am. If I am wrong it will be a wonderful surprise.

It may sound ridiculous but it is the way things are right now. Stilll hoping for a revelation or better yet, a miracle, but for now, being open to it is about the best I can do.

If you're still reading, I just wanted to add thank you. I worried about posting here because I was afraid of being judged harshly for my struggle. I know this is clear cut for many. Thanks for your openness and for sharing so much for me to consider.

Lovely, lovely post OP.

as for 'being judged for your struggle' or it being 'clear cut for many' - erm, nope it so is not 'clear cut'! It is the age-old struggle I guess.

And if anybody judged you for your struggle, i'd personally wrestle them to the ground, frankly.

OP, I'm very sorry that this is such an issue for you.

My relationship is not entirely dissimilar to yours: My DH is a Muslim, I'm an atheist. We had this very same discussion about him wanting - no needing - me to believe hundreds of times.

I did explore DH's religion - which I now consider a capital mistake. It nearly destroyed our relationship: DH had somehow naively assumed that if only I read the Qur'an I'd be as convinced of it as he is.

What actually happened was that I was a) completely nonplussed at the notion that someone could find this stuff even vaguely credible and b) utterly horrified at the graphic descriptions of hellish torture an at how much hatred the supposedly divine author spouted against non-believers.

What followed was a period during which DH felt completely rejected because I had failed to embrace Islam, and I was questioning how my own husband could unequivocally assert the truth of a book which said such vile things about me and my loved ones. It almost broke us.

What saved our relationship was that, on a personal level, we have the utmost love and respect for one another, that I learned more about DH's personal beliefs (some of which are in fact quite unorthodox - e.g. he doesn't believe in hell) and DH's recognition that his main issue with my disbelief was in fact that he thought he was failing as a Muslim by having taken an atheist wife.

We're mostly okay about the whole thing nowadays. DH's attitude towards my atheism these days is one of 'at least I tried'. It's not really fine by him but he accepts that this is the way I feel and that his failure to be a 'good' Muslim is his responsibility, not mine. Arguably the fact that he strongly believes in a merciful god, who has the same hereafter planned for everyone makes this easier for him.

I'm not sure if this helps, OP, but I was hoping that hearing how this went for another couple might perhaps give you some new ideas about how to approach things.

I too, sincerely, hope that you do not feel in any way judged by what I have said. That was never the intention.
I think if you keep trying to be open minded to the fact that, yes, you may be wrong and God hads been there all the time loving you, it will be an amazing and most wonderful experience.

I often say about sharing faith: if you had the most wonderful, amazing box of chocolates, that would never run out, would you not want to share? I would and feel that I have such a 'box of chocolates' and want everyone to have what I have.

I wish you and your loved one all the best.

OP, there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about that.

If there is a loving merciful God, I just can't see him leaving you out in the cold, whether you ever feel like you believe in him or not.

I often find that many people who feel they can't find God are rejecting things that they don't like about religion. I also know people who have felt that they could not "solve" the problem of God rationally or scientifically, but were often looking at the notion of God in the wrong way, stacking up their chances against finding God in any way. (I also know a lot of scientists and very rational people who do believe in God - belief and rationality are not mutally exclusive).

I suspect the most intellectually honest answer is to be open to there being something more than we presently understand, perhaps more than we could ever truly comprehend, but also to admit that if such a thing is there then it probably won't correspond exactly to the traditional religious descriptions of God. You then live your life as honestly and ethically as you can, being open to others and prepared to dismantle your prejudices.

While I am a Christian, I find such labels very unhelpful. I try not to get into the identity wars, separating the world into "Christian" and "not Christian". I think of General Pinochet, who was an observant Catholic and went to Mass everyday, yet oversaw some terrible human rights abuses. I also think of Alain de Bouton, who doesn't believe in God, and who turned down the chance to inherit his fathers millions, preferring to earn his living from writing books of popular philosophy encouraging people to consider their lives and think about how to be happy and live meaningfully. If there is a God then I reckon de Bouton is probably closer to her than Pinochet was, even though de Bouton just doesn't get the God idea. So live the best that you can, be caring to others, and if God does exist I am sure she can sort out the fine details.

Truly great post, Basmati.

I have got something to add, but it deserves proper consideration...can't just dash it off quickly; I'll come back to it tomorrow. Basmati's second para in particular is very good. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation.

aquestion, I think you sound like you have come to a good compromise. You can't' make yourself believe.
I was an atheist for a while after being raised Catholic. I held the view that if you couldn't prove it, it doesn't exist. Gradually, I came to the conclusion that I was wrong, not about catholicism which isn't right for me but I do now believe that there are souls/spirits and an afterlife. I have had signs since my dd died that she is still around. I believe that religions were founded to explain things that otherwise can't be explained and that although you can't prove there is an afterlife, neither can you prove that there isn't.
I hope you and your loved one can find some peace.

Still reading, thank you all for your thoughtful and considered responses. And no, I have not felt judged on this thread, as I worried about prior to posting. Despite the relative anonymity of MN, it is a very, well, the closest descriptor would be a vulnerable feeling to expose such a personal struggle. The posters on this thread are a credit to MN.

I agree with your statement Chipmonkey, that "although you can't prove there is an afterlife, neither can you prove that there isn't." I'm very sorry about your DD. I hope whatever signs you have experienced have provided you some comfort.

aquestion, they have. One day, I went into my sons' bedroom. I said out loud "I miss you, princess." A toy on the windowsill that very second moved and made noise. That happened a couple of times with different toys in different rooms, also my ds1 experienced a radio switching itself off, the switch physically flicked itself. I have also asked for specific signs and got them. My aunt who lost two children also reports signs from them. Also, my ds3 who is only 7, has sometimes used strangely "old" phrases that I associate with my Dad, who died before he was born. None of this is "proof" of course but it's enough for me.

Chipmonkey, I can imagine how those kinds of experiences must be very comforting for you. Just the thought brings a very warm feeling.

Oddly enough, I never wanted "spooky" thiings to happen to me. But I don't mind if it's her.

I'm still struggling to put my words together, but here goes. My dad spent a year dying, and I spent a lot of that time with him. It was a hugely spiritual time; in the months as death approached, it was more and more a case of just sitting and tuning in to him as he grappled with his thoughts and "off-loaded" stuff that concerned him.

I think it was an education for me in how to live and die, for me; and that was of great benefit. I read a lot of books about death and dying - particularly how to help people who are dying - and that opened my mind to more spiritual matters. My dad also had a near-death experience some weeks before he did die, and that was also a special thing.

I would suggest that you keep as open a mind as possible. You might be surprised what thoughts and feelings come to you. Others have said, more or less, free yourself of the confines of organised religion and its boundaries; I would agree with that. What Chipmonkey says also resonates with me. I think 'faking' is not the right word, here: it's more suspension of disbelief. What harm can that do?

There is one thing that keeps coming back to me as I read through and that is that you don't have a personal experience of something to believe on the grounds of what others say and to act on it.
Say, for instance that your friends, or even total strangers tell you there is a hole in 'Acacia Road'. Do you have to actually fall into that hole to avoid walking trough 'Acacia Road'? Or is it enough to take the word of people who have been there and act on what they say?
It's not pretending, not like avoiding the cracks in the pavement in case the crocodile gets you, not like pretending Father Christmas is real although you know perfectly well you have put the presents under the tree yourself.
It's like saying: yes, I believe there is something it that and I'm going to act on it.
One other thing: Christianity is so much more than 'pie in the sky when you die'. It is a living relationship with a living God, a relationship that will carry on after death, because death itself has been overcome by Christ on the cross. It is perfectly possible to believe that on the grounds of what other people say, in the same way as you believe in the 'hitgiAR'. You act on that, so, in the same way you act on the premise that God is real, that He loves you and wants a relationship with you. It will feel unaccustomed, strange even, specially if you have been used to taken 'Acacia Road' on your way to work.
I'm only saying these things because from what you have said, you really would like to have that faith.

A 'hug from the inside' is a good way to describe it. i too have those experiences and it is what the OP would like for herself. I think

It is perfectly possible to believe that on the grounds of what other people say

Is it really? I'm sure you genuinely believe that, but other people say so many different things that doesn't quite add up. Certainly you should think about what other people say - and perhaps try to practice what they do, if it seems good. But ultimately, 'to thine own self be true' - you can't live someone else's life.

Actually, Grimma, I agree!

I know when I post about dd and my beliefs and experiences, that there are people who read and think that I am a poor demented, bereaved, hallucinating mother. I know I'm not, I've been lucky to always be mentally strong and not suggestible in the slightest, I'm fairly sure no-one would ever be able to hypnotise me, for example. I wouldn't for a second try to convert anyone to my beliefs because they are personal to me. I will tell people about them if it's relevant but a lot of the time I know that people are mentally thinking "Yeah, right!"

What gave me the most freedom, was not being a Catholic any more, which is a long time ago, now. I feel that it made me more free to find a truth of my own. For a while I thought that truth was that there was nothing. But now, for me, the truth is that there is an afterlife, probably a God but all in dimensions which are deliberately imperceptible to us, of which our universe is simply a three-dimensional cross-section. Religions come and go and I think they are partially based on peoples actual paranormal experiences and partially based on some disingenuous people who want people to think they have communicated with God to serve their own purposes. But it's difficult to tell the difference between the former and the latter.

aquestion It is possible that you may get some after-death communication from the person you love, in a way that will convince you that there is something. Or then again, you might not, plenty of people don't. The most important thing is the love you share and that will most certainly last after his death. Once you have that, he will always be in your heart.

Not sure exactly what the is for DutchOma. No, I've definitely never experienced the kind of internal feeling that jjkm describes. I imagine that it does make it much easier to believe, receiving a response to your prayers.

I'm afraid that for me, it is not "perfectly possible to believe on the grounds of what other people say." I certainly do consider what some people say, think about it, etc., but don't think that's quite the same, iykwim. Grimma's quote actually hangs on the wall above my desk, I've always felt the whole verse: "This above all: to thine own self be true; and it must follow, as the night the day, that thou cans't then be false to any man. Farewell, my blessing season this in thee." I have both loved and hated that quote at various times in my life, but it always does ring true.

My desire to believe in something more is primarily because someone who means a great deal to me wants me to. It's not a search I'd have undertaken otherwise. Now however, if I am honest, in my heart, I would also like to believe for myself that there will be an opportunity somehow/somewhere to reunite with loved ones. This is not something I've ever really wrestled with before.

Regarding "religion" - I chose not to join the church when I came of the age to do so, felt absolutely no compulsion to join beyond the external pressures of family expectations. I studied various religions out of personal interest and never felt pulled towards any of them. If anything, I rejected faith in early adulthood largely on the basis of being turned off by many religious practises. I've always been quite happy in my rational/logical/scientific explanations of things like matter and energy, accepting that there are things that we do not yet understand, and acknowledging the real possibility that something beyond our comprehension was responsible for them. That "something more" had absolutely nothing to do with religion for me personally though. It was simply my thought process that said we (meaning humanity) are naieve if we truly think that we are "it."

I am ok with where we are since Monday. While I do wish I had more to offer him, I think it's as good as it's going to get, barring some discernable answer to my prayer, which was pretty much what Springy suggested. If he is wrong, I'm still glad he's had the comfort of believing, and certainly it hurts no one for him to believe. If I am wrong, which I truly do hope, then someday a beautiful, tremendous surprise awaits me. In the current circs, I welcome any opportunity to "suspend disbelief" (I like your term Chilli). I am as open as I can be whilst still being honest with myself. If that makes any sense.

Just realized this is a mammoth post, sorry.

x-post Chipmonkey. Thank you. Thank you for those words.