Safe haven chat thread for non-believers

[technodad]

I thought it would be lovely to start a "safe haven" thread for all the non-believers on mumsnet. It doesn't matter how strong your disbelief is, or if you are agnostic or humanist rather than pure atheist, the important thing is that you believe in the scientific method and the fact that evidence and testing is used properly to grow our understanding of the universe.

The idea is to talk with other non-believers to share ideas, thoughts and evidence or even provable theories.
So come in and relax!

Please can I respectfully ask that this is not a debating thread to challenge people. While I am not the mn police, there are other threads to debate on or please start your own. This is a safe haven.

P.S. It is unfortunate that Starwisher seems to be implying in his/her thread that non-believers do not allow "safe haven" for religious discussion. I am pretty sure that there are no atheists debating in the "Hallelujah He is Here ? Chataway [sic]" thread, the "Pagan interest thread" or the "Christian prayer thread- Easter on the way" thread, we just tend to get involved in threads where clearly the OP intended to provoke debate or is asking for a balanced view. However, since Starwisher has asked for his/her thread to not involve any debate, I felt it was not appropriate to make this comment in the "Safe haven chat thread for believers" thread.

It had a rocky start to be fair

Well this thread has been a nice read

Another atheist here.

Regarding children in school learning about religion - isn't it all supposed to be presented as "this is what some people believe" and "this is what some other people believe"?

I realised recently that there were gaps in my children's vocabulary in English. We are a bilingual family, using English and Greek, living in Greece. My son (5 yrs old) came home from school and asked me "Mummy, how do you say "theos" (god) in English?" I asked him what he had been doing in school. "The teacher told us about a man called Christos who was put on a cross with prickles on his head, and he was theos too, and so we have a party called Pascha"

I never talk to the children about religion (why would I?) and it had never occurred to me before that this might cause a vocabulary problem!

Hello Alex

Regarding children in school learning about religion - isn't it all supposed to be presented as "this is what some people believe" and "this is what some other people believe"?

I'm not sure that applies to faith schools - which for Crunchy in NI is unfortunately the vast majority - and even in supposedly non-denominational schools, not all teachers manage to do this scrupulously.

"The Department for Education states that all maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship which must reflect the traditions of this country, which it says are, in the main, broadly Christian." BBC linky

So, that's what's supposed to happen though that article suggests it's not. Our village school is C of E and presents a kind of Christianity light but in R.E. everything is presented as you say "this is something that some people believe."

I know what you mean about vocabulary, or at least in our case comprehension, my DD came home terrified at age five crying that "She didn't want to have a baby!" This went on for ages despite every rational argument and age appropriate explanation of the mechanics. Turned out they'd been reading about the Anuinciation (can't be bothered to check spelling) and she was convinved God would make her have a baby any moment now.

After that I started talking to DD about religion and I do let her go to Church because at least then it's a devil I know if you know what I mean...

Sorry, obviously it's what happens in the UK

WyrdMother you can laugh now, but your poor DD!

Unfortunately, there's no getting away from religion in Greece. It's everywhere. The priests all wander around wearing their black cassocks in the streets. It's accepted as a fact of life in schools (that's crap about NI, btw, I didn't know that). But that doesn't mean I want it invading my home too! So I've never talked to the children about it. Now I'm wondering if I should just mention a few things, purely from a practical point of view, but just make it clear to them that they don't have to believe in it too.

thank goodness no one makes a big deal of creationism over here!

thank goodness no one makes a big deal of creationism over here!

perhaps its blatantly obvious in Greece that Genesis is a myth because the ancient Greeks had their own set of creation myths?

I'm actually getting involved, through the humanists (although I'm not really a humanist) in campaigning to get the law changed WRT RE in NI, not holding out too much hope there! It's interesting (if terrifying) reading.

"Religious Education is defined by the Department of Education and the four main Christian Churches in Northern Ireland. It also has a role to play within the context of the revised curriculum through presenting young people with chances to develop their personal understanding and enhance their spiritual and ethical awareness." is the curriculum header.

Religions other than Christianity are not mentioned until Key Stage 3.

here is the lovely brightly coloured indoctrination document.

My kids aren't at a faith school, it's not secular though, we don't have any. My choices are very limited, basically suck it up or home school!

Religions other than Christianity are not mentioned until Key Stage 3.

blimey. In the UK I think most of them start to learn a bit (mostly the festivals) from KS1.

My DD is in yr8 now - up till this year she's been negative about RE (despite me trying to encourage her to take an interest in what other people believe) - but this year she's enjoying it, they're being encouraged to talk and write and think about what they believe. Last term the teacher decided her class could do with something a bit more than the normal curriculum and had them doing some ethics she usually teaches in A-level

Well, kids are still taught creationism even in low key C of E schools by the pure fact that they are taught that god created the world! Sign the petition: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/1617

Also, in the news today - It looks like the scouting organisation is not going to ever be flexible over their membership policy. From the NSS website today: "The Scouts also exclude atheists from leadership positions. Their 'Equal Opportunities' Policy states that 'the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a leadership position'. Paedophiles are the only other group deemed unsuitable for such positions." - www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/04/nss-challenges-bear-grylls-over-scouts-inclusivity-claims

It takes me back to my first thread on Mumsnet: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1357374-Scout-Association-Promise-Athiests

I tend to use the word 'creationism' for the bible-literalist, evolution deniers - they are (I think) proscribed from peddling their lies in UK schools.

But the normalising of the 'creator god' concept is still wrong - it seems to be mostly in the wretched 'collective worship', all those hymns about how God made all the nice things.

Why was there never a hymn called "All things dark and horrible"?

Techno - oh, but there is: All Things Dull and Ugly

funny how Mr Idle's words never seem to make it into assembly though. We came across this in a children's anthology (Too Good To Miss, ed Ann Fine) juxtaposed with Bright and Beautiful. DD sang the newer version with gusto!

that's so funny, Grimma! (good taste in books, btw)

I am going to send it to various friends and relatives for a laugh.

It's a good set of books - they're compiled by age, the last is definitely for older kids.

Hi all. I'm hoping someone here can explain the Christian apologist's argument for god using the notion of absolute morality? Ive come across it a few times recently and I can't seem to follow it. I think what they're saying is along the lines of; because even as an atheist we say that rape is bad that we obviously have a sense of what is evil and that sensing of evil can only come from god? How do they dismantle the standpoint that morals are social constructs? Or that apes demonstrate empathy etc? Either their argument is flimsy and/or deliberately confusing or I'm being thick?

HIH,

I don't think there is any way that sort of logic can be explained and the best policy is probably to say "that?s nice" and walk away.

When you are having an argument along the lines of "It is because I say it is, and I am right", you have no chance of the other person listening to your point of view.

Unfortunately, atheists are often seen as having this unreasonable position too, but this is generally born out of a misunderstand by theists that an argument value of ?opinion? holds the same weight as an argument based upon a solid, proven and repeatable process.

head - I don't think I've ever come across anyone trying to argue that. If you can't understand it, it's because its a multiply fallacious argument, not because you're thick!

a) because demonstrably, while most humans (and other species) share some 'morals', there are many others which are not shared. One persons ethic may be abhorrent to anothers morals - eg pro-choice, anti-abortion or euthanasia.

b)Those values which are pretty universally shared are all ones which you would expect to evolve in highly social animals, and indeed many have been shown to exist in other species - eg rats show a sense of fairness. So you most certainly do not need to invoke god to explain them.

c) in practice, many people are 'situationalists'. 'Thou shalt not kill' - yet 'godly' US states have the death penalty and nations have armies.

It's a new argument to me as well head, but I haven't been involved in any arguments for years, it usually goes

Me: "Actually I'm an atheist"
Whoever I'm talking to (usually someone wondering what I'm doing in a Church): rabbit in the headlights/you're not going to run amok are you? expression. Goes and talks to someone else.

I may be arguing with the Vicar shortly (he told me I'm an Agnostic, not an Atheist, I replied I'm a friendly Atheist at the moment) but it rather depends on DD who's been exploring some of the reasons she wanted to go to church in the first place and may be on the way to concluding that she doesn't need to go anymore!!!!!! I'll make an Atheist out of her yet! I will!

Back to the argument, it sounds like a yah boo sucks argument, they think it means you can't win which means they are missing the point, you can't win or lose with facts they're just facts, basically we're not playing the same game (someone may come along and prove I've just said something silly, because it's Friday and I'm tired).

Wyrd - all 'agnostic' really means is that you accept that its unknowable whether God exists - its got nothing to do with whether you believe or not. Atheist and agnostic are not points on a sliding scale ending in belief, they're different things entirely. I'd say I'm an agnostic atheist. Quite a lot of Christians who've seriously thought about it are agnostic but believers. Ask the vicar if he's an agnostic and if not, why not?

Thanks for your take on it. It has helped. I just like to do anyone's standpoint justice by trying to understand it as best I can but realising that some arguments are
not worth even beginning to grapple with when they're based on false assumptions. When I was in to Christianity and a church goer these debates never came up from what I can remember. The only time unbelief was mentioned the old 'only a fool says there is no god' verse was fired out and it was pretty much case closed.

On another tack I just found this:

www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/04/05/christian-bus-ad-advises-child-with-druggie-parents-to-pray-not-call-for-help/

Some of the comments are spot on.

Well there's proof enough that there is no absolute morality. I'm sure the people who created and paid thought they were being very morally upright. I think it's deeply unethical.

"...its got nothing to do with whether you believe or not."

Well okay, in the stictest sense (which actually would probably be the way he meant it now you've made me think about it ) I'm an Agnostic Atheist because I can't prove a negative.

So my growly feeling towards him is unfair, but Agnostic has wishy washy connatations to me that I just do not like which probably has to do with the words common missuse.

However he did actually say "You're an Agnostic, not an Atheist." So, also in the strictest sense, since they can go together he was wrong too

Wyrd - yes, arm yourself for your next round of the verbal fencing

Oddly enough, this morning DD arrived in my bed for her usual lie-in cuddle and the conversation wound to her upcoming exams and that the RE was going to be something like considering whether it was OK to be agnostic about certain things (she didn't exactly define what) and so I found myself discussing the meaning of the word before I'd even had my first cuppa!

I went to the local church today. It was a social obligation - I was invited by my neighbours - they live in the other flat on the same floor as me, so I see them all the time and it's important to keep good relations going! They were having their 10 month old baby baptised.

While we were in the square outside the church waiting for it all to get started I got chatting to another neighbour (she lives in the flat directly above mine) and she has told me in the past that she doesn't believe at all. Another person came and joined us and commented on how she felt sorry for the baby having to go through all that "nonsense". It struck me - practically everyone I know in Greece has had their children baptised, and yet a large number of them have said they don't believe, or made disparaging remarks about it being nonsense, long winded, etc. So why do they all do it?

Even my SIL told me she doesn't believe in Christianity, but she felt she ought to go through the motions "for society".

And how many in the UK too just go along with it all out of a sense of cultural obligation or something like that?