Safe haven chat thread for non-believers

[technodad]

I thought it would be lovely to start a "safe haven" thread for all the non-believers on mumsnet. It doesn't matter how strong your disbelief is, or if you are agnostic or humanist rather than pure atheist, the important thing is that you believe in the scientific method and the fact that evidence and testing is used properly to grow our understanding of the universe.

The idea is to talk with other non-believers to share ideas, thoughts and evidence or even provable theories.
So come in and relax!

Please can I respectfully ask that this is not a debating thread to challenge people. While I am not the mn police, there are other threads to debate on or please start your own. This is a safe haven.

P.S. It is unfortunate that Starwisher seems to be implying in his/her thread that non-believers do not allow "safe haven" for religious discussion. I am pretty sure that there are no atheists debating in the "Hallelujah He is Here ? Chataway [sic]" thread, the "Pagan interest thread" or the "Christian prayer thread- Easter on the way" thread, we just tend to get involved in threads where clearly the OP intended to provoke debate or is asking for a balanced view. However, since Starwisher has asked for his/her thread to not involve any debate, I felt it was not appropriate to make this comment in the "Safe haven chat thread for believers" thread.

Hi Technodad, I'm here. I was raised Catholic, confirmed under duress. Was atheist for many years, and spent ages trying to convince my mum that just because I was an atheist scientist, then I wasn't immoral/evil/unkind/heathen. Civil wedding. A few years ago I went to a Humanist funeral and realised that Humanism is what I had been trying to explain to my mum for all that time. As a baby DS had a Humanist Welcoming Ceremony and my mum said it was one of the most moving events she had ever been to - it was tailored made for us, with secular readings we'd chosen, in a fabulous location we had longstanding associations with. I hope to do something similar for DD (5 months).

I see Humanism, atheism etc a many parts of a whole belief system, which includes the more mainstream religions, in much the same way as I choose not to eat meat, live in the countryside, work in the public sector and make many, many other choices about how I live. My best friend is a practising Pagan. Our local village school is C of E aided and I intend to send the DC there. These things are all part of the tapestry of the world. I won't "hide" religion from my DC, rather it is my intention to teach them about it in a neutral way and let them know it is not what DH and I believe.

By the time DS and DD are 18, they may be meat eating, church going, city dwelling, wheeler dealers but as long as they are moral and kind and have made informed decisions of their own I will be happy.

As far as other beliefs and religions are concerned, I am happy for anyone else the belive anything else, as long as it is not harmful or detrimental to anyone. DS had a T Shirt as a baby that said "Magic is the stuff science hasn't made boring yet". I rather like that.

What piques my interest is the whole notion of a 'safe haven' for beliefs. Wouldn't someone rather know that their beliefs stood up to scrutiny? I find it interesting how often you hear sentiments like 'what's important is that your faith works for you'. Don't they realise that not all beliefs can be right. And that it is possible to reject theism and still feel that life is full of wonder, real tangible wonder. But all that said I was a Christian once so I know it's possible to hold that belief and just fit it in to the world where you can and gloss over the bits it doesn't.

HIH,

I was having a good chuckle at the ?How do you know your religion is the right one?? thread too. I just can?t get over how people can say ?the right religion is the religion which is right for you? without thinking ?hold on a minute, that must mean we are all believing something completely different and it must be all nonsense?. I know people who have faith get annoyed when non-believers imply they are stupid, but when they use arguments like this, they imply it themselves.

I remember writing in a thread on mn about how ?faith? was like the colour blue, in that I have no idea if everyone else?s brain ?sees? the frequency of light that enters their eye in the same way and it is impossible to prove that they do or not, so actually there are as many different faiths in the world as there are people in the world who have faith (and they can?t all be right, therefore they must all be wrong).

One of the problems for me is this assumption that everyone has some sort of faith. On the radio last night, there were complaints that David Cameron?s comments regarding Christianity underpinning our society could be offensive to people of other religion. There is never any consideration for the fact that it might be offensive to people of no faith (we don't even get a mention, but we form a pretty large part of the country)!

The thread was set up foremost for a lady on here who lost her baby and wanted solace to talk with no judgement.

But hey don't let your hatred stand in the way of support.

Should I be honoured you went to so much effort to get one up over me.

Have a great day

I think this is a really interesting idea for a thread, OP, and I'd like to contribute to it shortly.

Starwisher? You mean the haven for believers thread? Don't think TD meant any offence to anyone about their personal experiences. I'm sure of it in fact.

As for hatred, where is this allegation coming from. What is being hated and by whom?

Head I have seen nothing bad from you don't worry

Anyway I'll let you all get back on with your atheist debate

Have fun

Starwisher:

Time out please!

I have honestly not read your thread. I do not see the point in reading a load of posts that I know I won't agree with, when I am not allowed to enter a debate.

When I posted my thread, I had only read your first post, which mentions nothing about Chipmonkey's plight, it simply states that you want no input from non-believers and infers that we interfere in threads where we are not welcome (which I don?t believe we do).

I have no hatred for people because of their beliefs and meant no offence or distress to Chipmonkey. Had Chipmonkey posted a thread to discuss her horrendous circumstances, she would never had an atheist enter her discussion (unless to express condolence or support), and I believe it reflects badly on you that you think there would have been.

Chipmonkey, please accept my deepest condolences for your loss.

I shouldn't have to justify or give explicit reasons why the thread was made to prevent it being ridiculed.

There is plenty of threads to debate on, so having just one thread where people can talk freely and support those in need in an online community is hardly a big ask

Anyway, technodad, I think I have always been interested in levels of 'proof' for various propositions. Seems to me that the more socially powerful the people are/become who adhere to a certain belief system, the less proof they need to produce.

Eventually the maintenance of power becomes more importance than the coherence and the integrity of the belief system itself.

From where I'm sitting this is all rather bizarre to be honest but hey ho.

Anyhoo, I really wish I'd had a much thorough exposure to other religions and their global historical picture as a child. In hindsight I knew zilch about how religions stole ideas and stories from each other. I'm pretty sure having this concept exposed to me would have given me a much more critical mind.

I have a friend who withdraws her children from RE. If you think about it realistically, if you're convinced that your path to god is true then surely even a passing knowledge of other faiths will be of use when proselytising to the hellbound. Not engaging in education about other faiths is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la la la la la.

Indeed, headinhands, when I was a kid there were people in my church who simply wouldn't have it that Jesus was Jewish. If they had been more secure in their historical knowledge they wouldn't have appeared so wrong and unpleasantly so.

Do you not wonder if the basis of 'religion' is really just a pattern for living?
The Koran and the Bible basically teach kindness, respect and consideration. Do we not all aspire to be kind, respectful and considerate even if we are 'non believers' in a particular 'God/god'?
We teach our children using fairy stories which give examples of good and bad behaviour, is 'religion' so very different?
As you say LineRunner Jesus was a Jew, I would add that the story of Moses is also in the Koran but so many folk neither know nor care about old homilies.
We live in an increasingly selfish society where lonely old folk die and no-one finds them for weeks, where vulnerable women or children are maltreated -there is no pattern for living, no moral guidance for the masses.
I neither believe nor disbelieve in any given 'greater being' and question many of the theories of science - its proven until someone else disproves it!

But it is nice to see a thread where I feel that I can actually share these views and hope that there are others out there who feel the same.

I was always interested in the origins of religion, as part of the evolution of complex belief systems and language in humans - humans who lived in tightly bonded social groups.

I think this at least can be scientifically presented by archaeologists.

I remember reading about ancient cultures that reveal a total absence of any religious/spiritual yearnings. Can't remember where/who. Religion wasn't always present in ancient societies. That was the gist of it.

Hi folks. Just wanted to say that Starwisher kindly started the other thread mainly for me as a few people were a little less than sensitive on the God thread which I ended up hiding as I found the implication that I was a little feeble-minded in taking comfort in Spirituality after the death of my dd a little too much to bear. Particularly as I am actually an intelligent person, was an atheist for a while and while I still reject the rigid belief system of the catholic church I was brought up in, I have found over the years that science alone does not fully explain certain phenomena that have occurred in my life and the lives of others both before and after the death of my dd. I don't follow any particular belief system, I have pretty much picked and chosen what I believe and don't believe and I don't hate gay people or atheists or think that they, or anyone else, is going to hell as I'm not convinced there is a hell and I like everyone who is nice to other people.

The other thread was not set up for people incapable of having a discussion or incapable of having their beliefs challenged. But you don't always feel like having an argument or a discussion, sometimes you just want to talk to like-minded people. I am posting on it as I find it more fitting for me than for example a Christian or a Pagan thread as I don't follow any religion to the letter but do believe there is more than this life.

That's all I want to say as I realise I don't belong on this thread and don't want to intrude.

Happy atheism! ( or words to that effect)

'there were complaints that David Cameron?s comments regarding Christianity underpinning our society could be offensive to people of other religion.'

David Cameron was right. The liberal humanism underpinning our culture and history did largely come from Christianity. And we should be grateful for that. Most of the alternatives offered in the C20th and C21st don't really seem very appealing, do they? The Soviet Union, Germany, Cambodia, China, regimes in the Middle East and AFrica based on extremist Islamic faith. . .

Christianity informed many, many positive parts of our historical development. From Methodism (encouraging, in particular, poorer communities not to turn to drink in their despair, and to work hard and keep clean and sober) and Fabianism, to the desire to stand up to Hitler and to help the poor and sick. And our literary, musical and architectural heritage has been enriched by a thousand-plus years of belief. You can't read Dickens novel and not see it at play. Or enjoy a TS Eliot poem. Even poets such as Hardy, who lost his belief, owed and acknowledged a huge debt to Christianity, in poems such as The Oxen and God's Funeral, while he simultaneously pointed out the hypocrisies and cruelties at work (the vicar not baptising Tess's dying baby, etc).

Much of the English desire for 'decency': being kind and tolerant, comes from a recognition that you should try and see the good in other people, do as you would be done by, etc. Those are not traits limited to Christianity, but it's the Christian faith that has largely (not exclusively) offered them as good examples in ENgland. I'm not Anglican myself but I have huge respect for the Church of England.

Sorry about your dd Chip. I'm sorry that the views expressed in this area of mn upset you. It is absolutely not anyone's intention to personally cause you any more difficulty at this time, I'm sure of that.

HiH

It was Will Durant re: the civilisations without religion/theism.

Abra1d, maybe we can accept the good that has come from Christianity but also acknowledge that as a planet we are ready to come of age as it were. I wonder if religion is largely typical of relatively young intelligent species. If there are other planets inhabited with intelligent life that is much further advanced than ours I wonder if we would see a similar pattern of religion to atheism maybe. Of course that is wild speculation.

Head the upsetting thread is in Chat not in this area. I was impressed with the very different reaction given to Chip from nonbelievers on here, compared to the "feeble minded type accusations" from nonbelievers on the other thread, along with non empathy for Chips situation. Thank you all for kindness shown.

Will Durant? Do have have any more info? I was always of the understanding that some sort of symbolic/religious belief system was a common characteristic of emerging human society and I'm talking the early palaeolithic here, along with language, fire, etc. By the time early civilisations were developing - stratified and complex - these systems had been appropriated by the elite along with access to resources.

Oh yes, most ancient cultures that we know of had a belief system, that is indisputable Until I read the article that mentioned work by Durant I wasn't aware that there were any instances of a lack of deism/theism at that time in history.

If you can find the Durant reference, that would be good.