Safe haven chat thread for non-believers

[technodad]

I thought it would be lovely to start a "safe haven" thread for all the non-believers on mumsnet. It doesn't matter how strong your disbelief is, or if you are agnostic or humanist rather than pure atheist, the important thing is that you believe in the scientific method and the fact that evidence and testing is used properly to grow our understanding of the universe.

The idea is to talk with other non-believers to share ideas, thoughts and evidence or even provable theories.
So come in and relax!

Please can I respectfully ask that this is not a debating thread to challenge people. While I am not the mn police, there are other threads to debate on or please start your own. This is a safe haven.

P.S. It is unfortunate that Starwisher seems to be implying in his/her thread that non-believers do not allow "safe haven" for religious discussion. I am pretty sure that there are no atheists debating in the "Hallelujah He is Here ? Chataway [sic]" thread, the "Pagan interest thread" or the "Christian prayer thread- Easter on the way" thread, we just tend to get involved in threads where clearly the OP intended to provoke debate or is asking for a balanced view. However, since Starwisher has asked for his/her thread to not involve any debate, I felt it was not appropriate to make this comment in the "Safe haven chat thread for believers" thread.

That Eric Pickles gives me the right hump.

I've always found the idea of prayers before council meetings very odd.

Or how about the Catholic Bishop of Shrewsbury, Mark Davies, who in his Easter sermon said that countries that had become secularised opened the door to evil ideologies such as Nazism and Communism and that Britain was heading in that direction. The bishop said that unless we had Christianity to protect us.

Makes me think of the Basil Fawlty bit "let me tell you, this is exactly how Nazi Germany started!"

I always thought Hitler believed God was on his side. Viciously disputed I know - depending on whether you are religious or not.

countries that had become secularised
So , that's France, the US, Turkey, Sweden....

Yet another twit who does not know the meaning of the word 'secular'.
An RC bishop should surely realise that secularism protects religious minorities (as catholics are in this country)

I don't know if Hitler thought he had God on his side but the pope of that day didn't seem particularly against him.

Exactly Grimma - secularism protect religious believers, but just abolishes the religious privilege. No problem there from me....

I really like France's stand against religious nonsense - they've started with the burkha, and they're talking about sorting the cruel practice of halal slaughter - good for them.

On the subject of Nazis and Christianity, I found this yesterday; fascinating stuff. (Scroll down to about two-thirds through it for the relevant section.)

If Christianity (or any religion) "protects society" - why exactly is it that the most secular societies on Earth (Sweden, Japan etc) have far, far fewer social & crime problems than the most religious (USA, Turkey)?

And I can't fecking stand Eric Who-Ate-All-The Pickles: "Stop persecuting us for wanting to persecute others who don't live the way this Bronze Age book of fairytales thinks we should. And how dare you stop us holding up a secular, civil, non-religious meeting while we talk to our friend the Jewish zombie and his dad. Who is also him".

Grrrr. And we're supposed to "respect" this bollox?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Yes, I've read similar. Appalling, isn't it?

But here's the thing they fail to understand - even if CD had been the most racist, immoral, unpleasant prick that ever walked on this planet (which, obviously he wasn't) it STILL wouldn't make evolution any less of an indisputable fact. So what's their point?

USA and Turkey are secular states technically, crocko. They give lie to the notion that secularism is the enemy of freedom to be religious. Secularism of itself is not enough...

The societies that seem to work best are those that are democratic and have well-functioning state systems for justice, healthcare and welfare. You need both of those together. Then, religion seems to peter out naturally and secularism (whether formal or not) becomes the norm. No 'militancy' required. No suppression of the right to follow whatever religon you choose.

Yep....but I meant "religious" in as "with the most believers". You're quite right - sorry I wasn't clearer :)

• as in....not in as.

My habit of not reading before I post is seriously starting to annoy me

:::fly by hi:::

Hello

Back to school tomorrow. DS1 has lost Jesus over the holidays (although sadly, he has Found Jedward)) so I may kick slightly less arse in the morning than I was planning to.

(DS1 was taught the literal truth of the Easter Story by a student teacher - also that the Big Bang is "just a theory," that people who believe in that don't believe in Jesus, and that people who don't believe in Jesus can't go to heaven. He's 6, has HFA, at an Integrated school, and is withdrawn from RE. I was a bit )

Everyone survived the holidays?

Crunchy - that student needs arse kicking . If your DS is withdrawn from RE how the heck did that come about?

We've had very good hols indeed - most of the highlights are in the 'outdoorsy shite' April Top Trumps - they include wild eider ducks, The Tempest at the RSC and nearly walking right into a seal pup.

They didn't do it in RE, it was a Lovely Story in literacy.

Although I did enjoy his re-telling - the Romans put a cactus fing on Jesus' head, then they nailed him on an X.

It's very typical for Northern Ireland, the curriculum for RE is scary - legal obligation of 2.5 hours a week. The school provide an alternative to the instruction part of that (1 hour per week) but if I want them withdrawn entirely, I have to go in and provide activities. And it's not timetables, will be slotted in anywhere, as in this case. It's supposed to be "some people believe" though - he should not have come out converted!

'Lovely story' If you tried to tell 6 year olds 'true' stories of brutal executions or genocide (Noah) from any other source people would think it pretty strange.

How did the Big Bang get mixed in?

I think he might have done a "My MUMMY says..."

Why the ? Its a good thing to ground kids in proper science. (presumably that Big Bang for a 6 year old not Sheldon et al - my and DDs favourite viewing at the mo )

Actually, I think he'd quite like BBT. It would be better than jeffing Jedward 'n' Jesus combo we've had all Easter!

Does Jedward's hair count as a Miracle?

Is Jedward a Binitary? (Y'know, one down from a Trinity)

ROFPMSL, I feel that their divinity is suspect. Give it 2000 years though, who knows?

I'm an athiest but my DD got interested in going to church so I've taken her to the family services intermittently over the last couple of years and it's been quite interesting, especially talking to the Vicar who sees the Bible as a starting point for understanding the Christian Moral Philosophy.

So far, the only difference between us seems to be that he believes in God and I don't, I haven't had enough time with him to find out exactly what he thinks God actually is.

I'm grasping for a point here but I think if you find the right religious person you can have a perfectly good debate.

I'm grasping for a point here but I think if you find the right religious person you can have a perfectly good debate

True. There's another thread here which started asking why people are often rude to each other on religious threads which is nice and civilised at the moment. This comes as no great suprise to me because I used to be a religious person

I shall read with interest. "...nice and civilised at the moment."