Safe haven chat thread for non-believers

[technodad]

I thought it would be lovely to start a "safe haven" thread for all the non-believers on mumsnet. It doesn't matter how strong your disbelief is, or if you are agnostic or humanist rather than pure atheist, the important thing is that you believe in the scientific method and the fact that evidence and testing is used properly to grow our understanding of the universe.

The idea is to talk with other non-believers to share ideas, thoughts and evidence or even provable theories.
So come in and relax!

Please can I respectfully ask that this is not a debating thread to challenge people. While I am not the mn police, there are other threads to debate on or please start your own. This is a safe haven.

P.S. It is unfortunate that Starwisher seems to be implying in his/her thread that non-believers do not allow "safe haven" for religious discussion. I am pretty sure that there are no atheists debating in the "Hallelujah He is Here ? Chataway [sic]" thread, the "Pagan interest thread" or the "Christian prayer thread- Easter on the way" thread, we just tend to get involved in threads where clearly the OP intended to provoke debate or is asking for a balanced view. However, since Starwisher has asked for his/her thread to not involve any debate, I felt it was not appropriate to make this comment in the "Safe haven chat thread for believers" thread.

I agree with Stephen Hawkings latest musings on the subject: 'There is no place for God in theories on creation of the universe.' And with Technodad's assertions on scientific method for testing the origins of the universe. I find the research into our universe fascinating - how vast it is, and how tiny we are! I don't feel a need to have this all explained away in such simplistic terms as 'God created it.'

I have always been interested in RE as an academic study, I find the roots of religion an interesting thing to learn about, in the context of history. I teach my children about religion and I wouldn't withdraw them from RE lessons - I would consider this a disservice to them. What I do find disturbing is the number of christians schools teaching creationism as 'an acceptable alternative believe to evolution. And then (to quote one head-teacher at a UK school) 'let the children make up their own mind about it. My opinion is that faith and the bible has no place in a science lesson. Full stop. Some schools in the US deep south don't teach evolution at all, just intelligent design.

The thing that does annoy me about the whole 'religion' discussion is that any kind of criticism of any aspect of religion is met with people implying that I am somehow immoral, pessimistic and miserable because I'm an atheist. The word 'hatred' has already been bandied about on this thread - a supposed safe haven. I wonder why that is? I appreciate the wonders of science and the beauty of the world and humanity - does the fact that I don't believe it was all created by a deity change that?

Will Durant - Primitive Atheism - atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/PrimitiveAtheismSkepticism.htm

I am so glad that I found this thread as I considered starting one but didn't know how to approach it.
I was christened CofE and was forced to go to Sunday school by a very religious grandmother. The same grandmother that was quite possibly one of the most cruel and self serving individuals I have ever come across. She went to church every Sunday though, a fact she never failed to bang on about.
I DO believe that there is more to life than the physical, our energy can't just disappear, but seriously, in this century, people STILL believe in creationism? People STILL think there is an omnipotent being watching everything we do and giving St Peter a list of who is getting in and who isn't? REALLY?

runningforthebus you have hit the nail on the head, faith and the bible do not belong in a science lesson. History and philosophy yes, along with other faiths. My daughter could have got a place in the local church school due to our proximity. It has a great ofsted rating and is within walking distance but I really want her to have a rounded education when it comes to religion and faith.

If you don't want a debate then don't post in AIBU!!!

Incidentally I agree with running

Autumn

Who posted what in AIBU?

Oh, I was wondering if someone would start this thread
Thanks TD.

How irritating. How really, really irritating.

(Not this thread, or you technodad)

Why does any Christian in this country feel they need a "safe haven"? From what, exactly? I don't accept Star-wotsits justification for starting the thread - if it had the effect of providing support for someone going through a difficult time, then that's great, but that's clearly not why the thread was initially started.

Of course, anyone can start any thread about anything they like, that goes without saying. But I'd like to explore for a moment the rationale behind it.

"We poor, persecuted Christians can't cope with having the torch of reason and common sense shone on our beliefs, so let's have a special place where only we can go and none of those icky, arrogant, strident, angry atheists are allowed in. So there". That IS what it amounts to.

A discussion thread is one thing - I personally wouldn't go anywhere near it. But the use of the word "haven" is bloody ridiculous.

Do these people understand what "persecution" actually is? That there really are Christians (and other theists) all over the world who are paying for their beliefs with their lives and liberty? (And yes, atheists too - but we don't tend to wail about being persecuted).

Maybe I should start a thread...."A safe haven for Liberal Democrats. No Conservatives allowed. (Labour by invitation only)". Can you imagine?

Sorry. Rant over. I'm nicer than this usually, Technodad.

To lighten the mood, I'll share with you my favourite EVER responses from theists when I've discussed their religion with them.....'cos it's funny.

(* Disclaimer for any Christians reading - these are from very dumb people, and I fully accept that 99% of you are not dumb and would never say anything this ridiculous. OK?)

"Of course a man can walk on water! Ever heard of "Water skiing"?

"So, what you're saying is that a few thousands years ago a whale grew legs, ran out of the sea and turned into a cow?"

Theist: Have you seen, with your own eyes, evolution happen?
Me: Nope.
Theist: So how do you know it did?
Me: Lots and lots of evidence.
Theist: But because you didn't actually see it happen, you're taking it on faith that it did, right?
Me: Well, no. But let's say, for arguments sake that you're right.. I am taking evolution on faith. You think I'm wrong to do so, because you don't accept that evolution ever happened? Yes?
Theist: That's right.
Me: So, you're acknowledging that "faith" can lead us to believe things that are not correct?
Theist
Me: So your "faith" in God and Jesus might be leading you to believe in something that's not true? Yes?
Theist: No, I know Jesus is real.
Me: Have you seen him with your own eyes? Were you there?
Theist: Why are you atheists so angry all the time? Why are you so bitter? Did God hurt you?
Me: Good bye.

I like that second example.

Didn't you know it is against the religion debating rules to use their weak arguments against them!

I think that other thread might have been because of me.

I find the religious threads mind boggling. Have you seen the one about learning/teaching yourself t believe in god. Why would you want to? It's hard not to come across as smug or patronising, but when you think that someone's faith system is on par with believing in the Easter bunny, it is very difficult to have a dignified debate, and not shout "imaginary friend".

@seeker Well, I rather think you should explain yourself then!

(I'm joking. Honestly :))

You mean the Easter Bunny doesn't exist?

@Hermione Reminds me of Jeremy Paxman saying that he went to church every Sunday and really tried to believe in God. And I remember thinking...."But why?"

I don't want to believe in something that's not true, so I start by trying to find out whether or not it is, and go from there. They seem to do things the other way round!

*Dunno whether Paxman still feels like this, it was a while ago.

New thread...."Safe haven for believers in the Easter Bunny. No high falutin' logical people, purleese".

One thing that frustrates me is the way that people respond to threads where the OP asks questions along the lines of "I am questioning my faith and I don't know what to do". These threads are very often pounced upon my people of faith who are quick to stop them straying, usually with responses like "he has answered your prayers, you just haven't been looking for the right signs".

For some reason, posting "maybe you are just realising the truth" seem to not to be "morally" acceptable and gets people's backs up.

This for me is exactly why the scientific method is right (apart from the fact that is isn't based on made up stuff), in that it encourages challenge, and that challenge makes the method even better.

darksideofthemooncup said "I DO believe that there is more to life than the physical, our energy can't just disappear".

Well, technically our "energy" never disappears as energy must always be conserved (converted into plant food). I suppose if you are referring to the "energy" of our consciousness, then from a scientific perspective this is seen as merely electrical impulses within an very complex and powerful organic computer. But if I am honest, the concept of conscious thought (and how humans became conscious) is such a mindbogglingly complex concept, that I think that a "spiritual" view is understandable.

A lot of it is to do with people not really understanding exactly what science is and how it works. I'm pretty sure that an alarmingly large number of people think that it amounts to men in white coats standing around with test tubes going..."Oh well this conclusion is logical and it doesn't involve any god, so let's go with that".

It's the scientific method that matters - the only process ever devised that allows us to stand aside from our personal biases (and we all have them) to see what's actually going on and what the reality of what our universe is actually all about. And it works.

I love science. I truly, truly do. It is our greatest achievement and the one thing our species has done that it can feel truly proud of. IMHO. That I can stand outside on a dark night and look into the sky with some small idea of what it is that I'm seeing makes me one of the most privileged human beings that has ever existed.

(Cue: "Yeah, but what about the atom bomb and eugenics? Hitler supported science too, y'know...and where did that get us? Huh?)

• Grammar fail in 2nd paragraph.

I'll get my coat.

Seeker, I think it also may have been because of the 'do you believe in god' thread in chat - which I ended up hiding on Saturday morning - it had been raging on for more than a week.

But still, as crocko says on the JW thread, you can respect a person's right to hold a belief, it doesn't mean you have to respect the belief itself. And I do reserve the right to criticise certain beliefs - particularly when people believe that they have a good old natter with god - to me it's just not rational.

Boo- I was hoping it was my fault-fame at last!

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/08/atheism-religion-debate-stalemate-archbishop

John Sentamu, the archbishop of York, who is viewed as Williams's likely successor, delivered his Easter message through his column in the Sun on Sunday. He urged readers to buy Fairtrade Easter eggs, and the newspapers "to hold before the world the face of Madeleine McCann, who is still missing".

It is nice to see that John Sentamu is such a deep thinker and has all the issue at hand. Sun on Sunday..... good moral choice for a voice then!

It seems like Pickles is up to it again too, playing the dictator by announcing his overturn of the high court judgement on council prayers. What is the point in having a high court if the decisions can just be overturned by one man?

Never mind, posted to wrong thread. Sorry!

Marking place - great thread Technodad