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Philosophy/religion

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Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

700 replies

ImproperlyAcquainted · 11/03/2012 16:36

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

OP posts:
TheNewMrsC · 13/03/2012 20:28

northey I'm sure some of them . There are probably many priests who don't agree , as with many issues . They are human after all . Even although we are all catholic doesn't mean we all agree about all issues . Some people don't agree with many ideas of the catholic church yet somehow identify strongly with it . But I think that's for another thread Grin

mathanxiety · 13/03/2012 20:38

AGuninmyPetticoat that is the thing religious exclusions from equality legislation would open many cans of worms. To avoid all sorts of get out of jail cards being issued willy nilly, separate the terminology and the concepts, church and state, and carry on.

The linking of church and state is an anachronism anyway, and not just where the question of marriage is concerned.

Actually, I am wondering if there will be some shakeup soon in the CoE over this (more than has already happened wrt the issue of women as bishops).

Sunshine401 · 13/03/2012 21:12

Marriage IS between a man and a woman. Always has been. Seriously, they may as well allow pets to marry if this is brought in.

Erm Stating that Civil partnerships and marriages mean the same thing and then posting the stupid thing above saying marriage is between a man and a women and that letting two men or two women marry would be as equal to letting pets marry!!
That is a totally mess of a view and you alone have just proved the point that marriage and civil partnerships are not equal as if they are why does it bug you for the title to be changed to married for all !

EnsignRo · 13/03/2012 21:13

What a thoughtful and civilised thread for the most part! Although wamster I think comparing this to letting pets marry is beyond offensive TBH.

For my part, I left the catholic church about 10 years ago, and have never been more pleased to be out. There seem to be so many reasonable people on here who are staying in the church despite disagreeing with fundamental teachings. I guess I just don't understand why you would do that, is the payoff worth it?

Straight or gay, marriage is about love and commitment, and I like to think Jesus would say exactly the same.

Redbindy · 13/03/2012 21:29

I would think that all marriage is about love between two people, of whatever sex, and their wish to demonstrate it. Unfortunately the bible in leviticus and romans takes another view.

Northey · 13/03/2012 21:32

I think for me, ensignro, I link the way I see this issue with my Catholic education and upbringing. It's a bit odd that the church hierarchy (which presumably also had catholic education and upbringing) has reached a different conclusion to the question of how to tackle this problem, but I can't help that. So that's why I still view myself a Catholic.

Annunziata · 13/03/2012 21:34

The letter wasn't read out in Scotland, does anyone know why?

I also would like to see a civil and sacramental division. As my mother said, how on earth can it be a sin to love someone and want to be with them for the rest of your life?

I don't expect the Church to start carrying out gay marriages, but they've got no right to interfere in any other body who is doing so.

Thought this fitted in nicely in this thread,

edam · 13/03/2012 21:36

the Bible says a lot of things that most Christians don't take very seriously. I always wonder why so many of the bigots use that verse of Leviticus as an excuse, but don't, as far as I can tell, insist on putting people to death for working on the Sabbath. In fact I'm prepared to bet that a lot of the people who cite Leviticus have even been to the shops on a Sunday...

Northey · 13/03/2012 21:38

Sorry, to explain that a bit more fully - the overwhelming message I received from nuns at school and priests at mass was one of tolerance and inclusion and acceptance. (It's a bit weird to use those words in relation to gay people, as it sort of implies that there is something wrong that needs to be accepted and tolerated.) Also of the need to think clearly, speak honestly and address unfairness and injustice. Also of the need not to wear short skirts Wink

I am genuinely surprised at the misguided idiocy of this letter. I just can't understand how something could be got so wrong.

Redbindy · 13/03/2012 21:42

Edam:
I take my guidance on all biblical matters from here www.landoverbaptist.net/

EnsignRo · 13/03/2012 21:52

Fair enough northey, that catholic education had the same impact on me I suppose!

CelticPromise · 13/03/2012 22:00

This is a really interesting thread. It seems there are lots of us who quietly get on with things while ignoring those teachings of the church that just don't seem very bloody Christian!

I was brought up Catholic, it is part of my life. My family celebrates its major events in the church. I feel comfortable there, part of a community, I love the music and the charity stuff and the commitment to social justice. And I have made the leap of faith, insofar as I believe in Christ. That does not mean that I agree with all the teachings of the church. I think a lot about whether I should stay, in the knowledge that many Catholics feel as I do, and it is us who really are the church. Or whether I should go to a more tolerant and inclusive church.

I will definitely write to my MP on the gay marriage issue, because I wish him to know that the church does not speak for me on this.

It is really nice to hear the views of others. I don't get to discuss it in real life nearly as much as I think about it.

Northey · 13/03/2012 22:05

I guess, ensign, that I don't want the prevailing view within the Church to be THAT sort of view. And if people who disagree with THAT sort of view all leave the Church, then that will be the only view that's left within it, and no hope of changing it.

I just wish I had a better idea of how to be remotely effective at changing it.

chipmonkey · 13/03/2012 22:16

"Ben Summerskill, chief executive of gay rights organisation Stonewall, said: ?At a time when 50,000 families in Britain are homeless and a billion people across the world live on less than a dollar a day, it?s extraordinary that Archbishops are worrying about the family arrangements of a few thousands gay people.

?We assume that Roman Catholic congregations will take as much notice of the instruction to marginalise gay people?s relationships as they do of the regular instruction they receive not to use birth control.? "

pretty much sums it up!

I was raised Catholic. After a while, I realised that I agreed with the church on very little so as an adult stopped attending Mass. However, I have friends who are Catholic, don't believe in many of the Vatican views but still attend Church. I know some lovely and dedicated priests who are not paedophiles and when my daughter died, I did want a Catholic funeral and burial for her. The local priest made it clear that we didn't have to have a Mass but we felt that it was was the best way to give her back to God, so we had a Mass. Two months after she died, I attended midnight Mass for Christmas with dh and the boys and was struck by the sense of community. Other times I have attended Mass, I have been struck by the inclusiveness shown by the local priests, the feeling that all are welcome, and the recognition that with regard to marriage, well, sometimes things don't go as planned.

But sad to say, priest like these never get to be bishops.

AsCorruptAsWhisky · 13/03/2012 22:17

Annunziata, we need to import that advert over here!

Marriage and a Civil Partnership are different things. They put the two commitments on different levels and it is obvious which has the more status. "I just got married!" vs "I just got civil partnered!"

The first time that I read that letter, which then led on to read many other articles on the Catholic Herald website, I was in tears. I was brought up in Church and, while struggling with the realisation that I was gay, I listened to a lot of anti-gay tripe. I understand the need for the Church to express its leaders opinion, but they aren't "thinking of the children" if they are willing to alienate a vulnerable child.

And marriage is not purely a vehicle for procreation. Quite apart from elderly or infertile couples, what about couples that just don't want children? Should they be banned from getting married? Does every engaged couple need to promise to the Church and State that they will have at least one child that is biologically their own and the woman pushes out of her vagina?

springchickennugget · 13/03/2012 22:29

I agree with a lot of what is being said on here and applaud stonewall for giving good ol' salt of the earth catholics the benefit of the doubt.

Just one little theological point though. Couples who don't want children can not get married in the catholic church. It is one of the 'barriers'. The most common reason for annulment being approved is if one partner can prove the other partner had no intention to have children. Also if you know you are infertile you must disclose this to the other partner. If you know you are infertile and do not disclose it that is also grounds for annulment. If you don't know it's fine, if you do know and your partner knows that's fine too.

chipmonkey · 13/03/2012 22:35

But spring, if two 70 year old Catholics say they want to get married, they will be allowed, won't they? I have never heard that they will be refused?

wigglesrock · 13/03/2012 22:36

Annunziata The letter wasn't read here in NI either, wasn't mentioned at all - was going to ask if anyone knew why?

springchickennugget · 13/03/2012 22:40

@Chip They are probably infertile and honest so that's fine.

Being post-menopausal counts as natural contraception as God 'made' women like that, in the same way he 'made' them less fertile on some days.

Sarah was post-menopausal but had sex and had Isaac. That would be the argument.

Not saying I agree with the marriage rules tbh. I cohabit and kinda know what they are going to say about that if I ever attempt a trip up the aisle!

edam · 13/03/2012 22:41

My Catholic Granny got married for the second time when she was in her late 60s, to a fellow Catholic who was in his 70s. I don't seem to recall any opposition from her parish priest on the grounds that they weren't about to start a second family...

Redbindy, that's not a very convincing swerve. The Bible does say people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death. Why get hung up on one verse that is anti-gay and not the verse that is pro the death sentence for Sabbath breakers?

Northey · 13/03/2012 22:42

What are they going to say, scn?

springchickennugget · 13/03/2012 22:43

@edam and @Chip not wanting and not being able to have children are 2 v different things. The catholic church opposes not wanting, as it is not up to you, it is up to God.

springchickennugget · 13/03/2012 22:44

@Northey Piss off probably. Or stop living together. To which I will say piss off!

Did you not see the Pope's address on Saturday. OUtlined a need to crack down on cohabitaiton and impose more rules for priests who have cohabitees coming to them asking to marry. Kind of went under the radar in England.....

edam · 13/03/2012 22:47

spring, apparently when my Granny had her youngest son, she nearly died and was warned not to try to have any more children. Granny and Granddad prayed, and God apparently told them it was fine to use contraception. She was a very devout Catholic, btw. Much good it did her - when she was elderly and really needed support she was very badly let down by the rotten parish priest.

CelticPromise · 13/03/2012 22:50

scn DH and I lived together before marriage. It was quite obvious as we gave the same address and had moved the area together. The priest did not mention it.

Pre-marriage prep was... interesting.

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