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Original poster

Hallelujah He is Here - Chataway

871 replies

DutchOma · 19/01/2012 17:24

Well here you are then Smile I don't post often, but just to save Nickel a job...

OP posts:
madhairday · 14/02/2012 12:08

OK acronyms. How deep the father's love for us, In Christ Alone, don't know, don't know, don't know, don't know!! I'm rubbish!! Will ponder more....

Back on normal puter now so can witter talk more. Wrath and atonement theories fascinate me. I've thought for a while that PSA theory isn't enough, but neither is Christus Victor. Paul uses so many analogies and ways of describing what Christ has done that it seems to me that we can never quite grasp the wide ranging truth of what the atonement actually did, and I suspect it will blow our minds hugely one day. I think we get glimpses - Christ defeating death, Christ taking on himself all human pain, Christ taking on himself that wrath of God . I wonder if the reality is a mixture of these and so much more. I like the CV because I think Christ defeating death is what our belief stands upon, and he needed to die and be resurrected in order to show that the natural conseqence of sin - death - can be overcome and that he has victory over death, therefore we can know with assurance that we will also be with him after death.

Wrath of God - well there is no doubt that God is holy, righteous and we cannot in any way measure up through anything we do. God is wrathful throughout the OT and we can't just say that suddenly God has changed, but we can say Jesus has changed things - the miracle of grace is perhaps even more amazing if we see that God would necessarily have to be wrathful/take vengeance. And when you look at some of the evil people do in this world you can see that God being wrathful over such things is not a bad thing. It's when it comes down to everyday sin, what you and I all do - where does wrath come in and how does it all work? I go back to what Panda said. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and we are only able to be in God's presence because of grace, because of the atonement work of Jesus. So does that mean PSA theory is correct? I don't know.

SESthebrave · 14/02/2012 12:25

Aah but it's good waffle MHD Grin

I don't think it's possible to fully understand in our earthly lives (unless God chooses otherwise!) and I don't necessarily think it is important to have all the answers but it is important to keep searching and questioning. One reason why this thread is so great!

nickelDorritt · 14/02/2012 12:36

"Oh, can't Abide" would be OCA
"How silly, long, boring, orange, Gooey" is HSLBOG
"stupid old lyrics"
"merry hell is full with this"

Wink
PandaG · 14/02/2012 12:51

thanks for all your thoughts. Provoked a lot of thoughts in me, and discussion with my DH too! MHD, what you have said about Jesus needing to die and be resurrected in order to show that the consequence of sin in death is beaten is absolutely true, and for me it sits right beside God's justice needing to be fulfilled. I've not heard of the names of the diferent theories, to be honest I don't really understand what the acronyms stand for. I just know that God loves me and sent his son Jesus to die and rise again so that I can be in relationship with him. When I am in heaven maybe I will understand it a bit more, but frankly I think I will be too busy worshipping in spirit and in truth to worry.

madhairday · 14/02/2012 16:20

Amen, Panda :)

creatovator · 14/02/2012 16:22

Very interesting discussion and I don't have the answers either. I haven't heard of the theories on it, but like Panda I know what I believe.

Jesus died to pay the price for my sin and it is paid in full. In order to receive that offer, I accept Jesus into my life and we make a covenant that I will follow Him. That means He gets all I am and I get all He is. I love that bit because He's way, way, way, way, way (to infinity) more than I am and could ever be and I have access to it all.

Therefore, God is always in a good mood with me, because there is no point in time when Jesus hasn't paid for me. However, when I sin I allow a barrier to come between me and God that I have placed there and this adversely affects our relationship. Therefore, I need to ask for forgiveness to remove the barrier.

I know that God still gets angry and have seen Him show His power to someone when they were thinking of trying to hurt me, but then I'm not sure that I would term it God's wrath, though the temptation is to do that. Hmm! That's not very clear, and I need to think about it a bit more.

I wonder too at times where my idea of what, "sin" is and God's idea, differ. I think of the passage where Jesus as a youth stayed behind in Jerusalem talking with the leaders in the synagogue whilst his earthly parents were frantically looking for Him, yet He never sinned.

newlark · 14/02/2012 18:53

On a separate topic is anyone reading a lent book with their church/small group? Anyone interested in joining me in reading one and sharing thoughts online? A couple of suggestions are Tom Wright's book with a daily bit to read called Lent for Everyone or Rowan Williams nominated lent book called Love Unknown.

niminypiminy · 14/02/2012 19:53

I would!

We're going to do Experiencing God's Love: Images of Transformation by Stephen Croft, which looks great. I'd be happy to do either of Newlark's choices too.

niminypiminy · 14/02/2012 20:28

On the atonement q -- MHD I think you are so right that it's never completely understandable, and can never be, but we can't give up on understanding either.

And to completely trivialise it all, I always have to use the acronym PSA otherwise I'm terrified 'penile substitutionary atonement' will slip out instead. I'm a bad person!

gingercurl · 14/02/2012 21:02

I wonder if wrath has more to do with God's holiness rather than anger per se. Because he is holy, we cannot come before God in ourselves and live, so maybe that is the wrath in th OT refers to.
But what does holiness actually mean? I often think I can't get my head fully around that one either Confused.

lostmywellies · 14/02/2012 22:19

Enjoying reading this discussion and nodding in places - don't have more to add, though. :)

Would like to join an online lent group and would probably not say much in that, either. :o

nickelDorritt · 15/02/2012 10:56

I can imagine lots of kids trying that one on with their parents - running off in church, and maybe looking through the bible or prayer book
"i told you not to run off"
"but I was looking at the bible!"

It wouldn't wash with me - he was still disobeying his parents (one of the commandments Wink ) and I class that as a sin, no matter what he was achieving while he was gone.

lostmywellies · 15/02/2012 13:28

Rubbish, nickel, didn't he seem bewildered by their response when they found him? And in any case, shouldn't we follow God first and our parents second? He was of age, by then, wasn't he? He'd have had his bar mitzvah by the age of twelve. If they had them in those days!

lostmywellies · 15/02/2012 13:38

I reckon in all the fuss and busyness of arranging travel home with all the family and friends, they didn't tell him and just assumed he'd tag along. They can't've been too alert as parents if they got out of Jerusalem without noticing he wasn't with them! :)

Anyway, I just listened again to that beautiful version of Be Thou My Vision and noticed the fantastic rewording of the irritating "I thou true son" bit:

"Thou my great Father, thy child may I be,
Thou in me dwelling and I one with thee."

Isn't that beautifully reworded?

nickelDorritt · 15/02/2012 13:48

yes, he did seem bewildered at their response - how many children think they've done nothing wrong? Wink

nickelDorritt · 15/02/2012 13:49

no, it's not - I don't like rewording to make things gender neutral when there's no need.
I can understand the generic third person singular.

lostmywellies · 15/02/2012 13:54

Hmm... I might have to concede that point. :)

Y'know what, though, ds (4) flushed a whole toilet roll of paper (without the cardboard tube, fortunately) down the toilet last night - and when confronted seemed quite aware that he'd done something wrong! I was quite surprised to see the tears start to flow.

Anyway, miracle of miracles, no blocked toilet! Phew!!

lostmywellies · 15/02/2012 13:55

"generic third person singular" meaning "son"??

I ain't nobody's son! :o

madhairday · 15/02/2012 14:31

I quite like that rewording. I usually hate with a passion any rewording of old hymns but that one actually works....however I don't worry too much about the son thing in general. Except if it's in a newer song - no excuse for that - there is one I sung lately...hmmm...can't remember for now but that annoys me.

niminypiminy · 15/02/2012 14:35

I think it's only too likely they got out of Jerusalem without noticing Jesus's absence. It must've been completely packed, because it was a festival, loads of people, their kids, servants, animals and so forth, packing the roads. Plus, he was 12, old enough even now to go out alone (to school, say), and in those days probably to have considerable freedom of movement. It's so easy for children to give their parents the slip.

So, I don't really class 'giving your parents the slip and going back to the temple' as a sin. An annoyance, yes; something you wish your child hadn't done, yes; something you might have words with them about, yes; something that you will try to help them see was irresponsible and possibly dangerous, yes. But something that divides God and man, no.

I like the rewording actually. I always feel a bit like 'who am I singing about here' when it gets to the 'I thy true son' line.

nickelDorritt · 15/02/2012 15:35

yup.

Grin

if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me Grin

lostmywellies · 15/02/2012 20:07

Exactly, mhd - rewording is so often ugly!

HallelujahHeisBorntoMary · 16/02/2012 17:18

Interestingly enough, this talk of wrathful/loving God is giving me the intro to my sermon :)

Original poster
DutchOma · 17/02/2012 07:36

How are you feeling Mary?

OP posts:
HallelujahHeisBorntoMary · 17/02/2012 08:01

Still not brilliant :(

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