Graham, Gloria and Gossip! Religion Chat thread (part 4)

[nickelbabe]

I know we've not officially finished the last one, but I wanted to get the link in before we ran out of room!

Everyone welcome - the aim of this thread is to generally chat about church life, or just gossip in general!
You don't have to be a regular church-goer, nor do you have to know what we're going on about!
It's not about debate, it's just about chatting
:)

thanks mhd - I've put us down.
:)

I'm going home now.
see ya later!

It's a good point DO, it seems they could get past that as not a needy area, or something to that effect, it has been looked into and there are no plans.

that seems so rubbish MHD - everyone needs community whether needy or well off. With regards to the big/small question, I think you can do something bigger at say Christmas as an event, but generally people seems to respond to the small, where they can know and be known. You also need the structure of somewhere for people to belong once they join you, be it your supporting local churches, or a mid sized community that you are running.

I do think lots of people love the opportunity to sing carols at this time of year, so maybe a 'sing' with mulled wine and mince pies? Our mother church does one outside in the church grounds, is there anywhere you could do this is premises are difficult?

On a totally different note, I am buzzing. Had been feeling low and sad, perhpas the post significant birthday blues, plus fed up with not moving. God has so clearly been with me the last couple of weeks, opened my Bible the other day ready to do my Bible study homework and just cried reading Rom 5. God's timing is perfect, and he loves us: 'But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' (Rom 5:8). Stuff I know, and have accepted for years and years, but it hit me afresh the other day! And, today, have had 3 viewings for our house. Praying that one lot will put in an offer!

Hope the scan goes well on Monday, and wishing you all the best Nickel. What are you going to do with the shop once the baby arrives?

Could do with some advice/ideas about how you all handle situations like the one I've recently found myself in.

DH and I have over the last six months befriended another couple who has a son the same age as ours. We met through the boys, as they are very good friends and play together. The woman has recently started taking an interest in religion and is trying to find her "way". As a result, they have been visiting different churches where they live, as a family. They've tried out a few different denominations but when they asked their son, he said he liked the RC church so they have been going there for a couple of weeks. I think this is fantastic and so far, so good.

What concerns me though is that for the last few weeks, she has also had a couple of Jehova's Witnesses come to her house to discuss the Bible. She thinks it is really helping her understand what the Bible says about different things and is impressed over how well they know it. I don't want my friend to be drawn into JH, but I don't want to come across as a militant "JW-is-not-Christianity-don't-get-involved-with-them", because to most non-Christians there isn't any difference so they think it's intolerance and tribalism.

So, my conundrum is how does one witness to a friend without coming across as preachy? Both my DH agnostic atheist lapsed RC who thinks he knows everything about faith even though he left the church as a teen over 40 years ago and she like to discuss religion and faith adn often do when we get together but being the only practicing Christian in this group (and often not a very good one), I find it quite difficult to join in because I'm afraid of coming across in a "this is how it is" way and as not being open to their ideas. So I end up mainly just listening, but I find it frustrating and I feel quite helpless. I just don't knwo what to say.

What do you do? How do you handle these situations. The husband raised RC but is non-practicing and I'm not sure really what his view/beliefs are.

Sorry for long post. I guess I needed to get this out as it is really bothering me.

SES - good luck with your scan today. :)

Panda - that's pretty cool about the reading! The NT reading yesterday at church mentioned labour pains and how there's no escape! Prefer the KJV translation to that, because it says "a woman in her travail" and the NIV says "woman in labour pains"

ginger - that's tricky. In my mind, JW are christians, but they're much more hardcore - they take the bible far too literally, and they can't accept blood transfusions. It might be worth mentioning that kind of thing to your friend, if she's got a young son, that might hit home.
There's nothing wrong with her listening to their talks about the bible, but it's also worth helping her see the bible from a 21st century perspective (and also that most of the English translations of the bible are completely different from each other, that the Greek suddenly means different things as our perspective on the world changes (things like Greek words for "people" (of both sexes) translated as "men" in the olden days, and that, although the KJV uses "man" meaning "people", that translation is lost these days as people see "man" to mean "male person" - especially when it comes to people who are allowed to talk in the church) - if it can do that with such a simple word then it can do that with a number of different concepts too, and your friend should be wary of becoming part of a group that will only accept one meaning/interpretation.
that doesn't mean they're wrong per se, but it does mean that they can be blinkered.

JWs do not accept Christ as Saviour, so in my mind are not Christians at all. It is very difficult not to come across as non-dogmatic and too rigid and I can well imagine that the only option for now is to stay silent.
I would suggest having a word with her on her own, if you could, without husband and/or children present and to say to her that JWs have ideas (like the blood transfusion, but there are others like: it's very easy to get into, but very hard to get out of) which are very rigid.

It may seem a bit obvious, but pray about the situation, pray for protection of your friend's mind and that of her ds and commit the issue to God.
Our ds had a similar situation and JWs are so very persuasive, it's scary. I don't think he prevented his friend from joining and had to withdraw from the situation, so as not to be drawn in himself.

what do they think of him then?
I know they celebrate the last supper as their important event of the year, so what do they think if that's not showing christ as saviour?
I don't understand that part.

Nickel They recognise Jesus as God's son but not as God.
They have their own translation of the Bible, the New World translation, in which some key verses in the New Testament differ from "recognised" translations. The differing verses relate to claims of Jesus as being God, or I am.
They teach that the doctine of the Trinity is heresy. I don't think they recognise the Holy Spirit as a person in the Trinity, but I could be wrong about that.
They also believe that 144 000 people are predestined to rule with Jesus in the last days. I guess they also reckon that the last days are already upon us as the second coming is supposed to have happened in 1914 (beginning of WWI) and Jesus is already ruling the earth now, albeit in invisible form.

i see.
very confusing.
the translations alone make me dubious - JWs are advised only to read JW literature, and to read the correct version of the bible - that's the bind - the fact that they're not allowed to make up their own mind based on their own research.
that 144000 thing makes me laugh. and I have JW friends who don't mind that they won't be saved.

Personally, I find the idea of Jesus coming back and ruling "in secret" somewhat strange. Especially, since after this 1000 year reign, he is supposed to come back again in majesty. How many times can he return exactly?

Actually, I think that JW do believe in salvation through Jesus' death, but Jesus is actually the same person as the Archangel Michael who volunteered to take human form and be sent by God to earth to be born by Mary. Jesus is a god, not God, and therefore, it is wrong to pray to him. Hence, you should only pray to God the Father, who the Jews say is called "JHWH" meaning I am.

JW do accept Jesus as saviour, at least from what I've been told by the JWs who visit me. I've never heard that they believe that Jesus is the same as the Archangel Michael though.

I have a lot of respect for them, particularly as fellow believers in God/Jesus, but I can't go with their beliefs on blood donation nor could I do as they do and go knocking door to door, plus I believe they are not allowed to have friends who are not JWs?

They don't believe in Jesus as God's son and also the Trinity and think have odd views on the HS as well, will have to look up.

I respect that they get out there and tell people but not quite a fan of their methods, and agree re the blood donation/organ transplant thing, that seems to fly in the face of all God has given us in terms of science, intelligence etc.

ginger that whole Millenium wotsit seems v odd to me as well, I know a lot of people believe in all that alongside the rapture but it all seems very loosely based on a couple of verses of scripture which if you look contextually are referring to something else entirely. It's all a bit bonkers imo, but you never know I guess - I believe totally Jesus will come again but have no idea when or how and don't really mind that I don't.

That is hard for you re your friends. I often think though that it is the people who listen who in the end get more respect than those wading in and you being a listener but gently letting her know your views as and when can be so powerful, also remember you're not on your own, the power of the Spirit can be amazing in these situations where we feel so weak yet God is working. Sounds like she is asking lots of questions and at the moment exploring the JW answers, perhaps you can gently encourage her to explore other places too - is there any local Alpha courses she could go along to? Or just let her know you're happy to talk about any of it with her, saying you don't always have 'pat' answers like the JWs but almost like exploring it, journeying together - then there is no arrogance and no sense that you are saying 'this is the way it is'.

Praying for you.

Hello everyone
ginger I am just like you in these situations, sitting there listening, wanting to chip in but not sure that I'm going to be able to answer in a really helpful way. In fact I think that this is why JWs are often attractive to seekers, because they do seem to know the answers and be confident in what they're saying.

Can you read up a little on JWs so that you can be clear about the ways that they are different from mainstream Christians. The only being encouraged to study the bible with their own study materials rings alarm bells for me as I believe that the bible stands up to scrutiny and we don't need to be afraid of 'reading around' if you see what I mean. Also maybe it would be helpful for you to get hold of a basic christianity book eg this one which you could give her if you could drop it into coversation somehow.

Thank you all very much for your feedback. I've decided to pray over the situation and to pray for my friend and her family. She knows I'm a Christian so when I get an opportunity, I will tell her that I will be happy to discuss and explore her questions together. If she's open to it, could I get back to you for some tips MHD? Didn't you run an "exploration group" where you were before? Encouraging her to attend an Alpha course could be an option although I attended one years ago and didn't get much out of it, but I believe it is really helpful for others. The problem is that her husband is a way a lot overnight for work so it could be difficult for her to get away in the evenings. I guess one option could be that should the situation arise, provided DH isn't away as well and he is OK with it, I could offer to go to her house to watch over her son, while she went to Alpha?

Gosh, so much to consider! In the meantime, I will read up a bit on the JW and refresh my knowledge of the Bible. I might actually get into the habit of reading it regularly again. I also hope and pray that the RC church that they go to on Sundays will provide positive input and that the JW's visits might somehow be made more difficult.

Of course you can ask for help ginger but I bet just you being you is what she needs. Yes I did run a couple of seekers groups, much more low key than Alpha and they were often a bit made up as we went along which worked for that group, we did also use the CPAS START material which imo is good but getting somewhat dated now. That book milly linked to sounds good as well, and yes good plan to read up on JWs etc. Sounds like you could do with a faith boost or two, maybe just exploring this alongside your friend will give you that, I have so often found that others alongside me finding their way with faith has amazingly increased my own.

Just been to docs and she was very cross that the urgent referral they sent 2 motnhs ago didn't get through til last week. Aaagh the wheels of the NHS. I'm so grateful for it and sometimes feel so helpless because of it!! Anyway she has resent a more urgent one now to try and get an appt sooner than January with my new consultant.

It's annoying when things get lost in the bureaucratic giant of the NHS. I'm glad that your doctor decided their response wasn't good enough and has acted again. Prayers that you'll get an appointment really soon, as in someone calling to cancel their appointment/rebook to another time and you being offered their slot instead.
I guess a boost of faith, as you put it, wouldn't come amiss. Problem is I had a huge crisis of faith quite a few years ago and have never fully recovered. I seem to be doing a two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, three steps back kind of thing adn I honestly don't know anymore what would make me stop doing it. I've just come to accept that this where I'm at and what I do.

that's the best thing, accept it and carry on.
There's no point forcing anything, or worrying about it, because you might become resentful.
:)

Would it help to talk about what happened with the faith crisis at all? No worries if not :)

I think most of us have a faith journey that can feel like that sometimes with the two steps forward, one back thing. I love when Paul says 'we get knocked down, but we get up again - battered, but not overcome' or words to that effect, and that is sometimes the best we can hope for - to keep limping along, wounded by the battle but in the sure knowledge of ultimate triumph. Just often feels like we're more in the midst of it than approaching anything like victory!! I think I'd be suspicious of anyone claiming 100% faith at all times - wouldn't ring true.

Thanks, MHD. Not on here. Too personal. You give nice hugs, though.

Cool, ginger, I'm here if you ever want to talk 'offline'. How are you feeling today? Hope it's not brought up too many bad memories talking about stuff.

Hey nickel, not long to go now, are you excited? Scared? You planning a hospital or homebirth?

I want to join in the hugs!

ginger - you don't have to talk about anything you don't want to talk about, but if things come up that you want to discuss, then we're here for you. :)

not long to go.
11 days officially!
homebirth. they're okay with it, but MW doesn't like that i've got to work until the end, and she was concerned about my iron levels (which I'm dealing with!) - funny thing is, they're not low, they just low for this.

oooh nickel homebirth! exciting! are you going to update us throughout labour so we can cheer you on

yes, I'm looking forward to my live birth thread!
DH thinks i'm mad, and that I'll be too preoccupied by the labour to worry about it! (actually, it's more that he knows he'll have to do all the updating, and new stuff scares him! w o r l d ' s s l o w e s t t y p e r !)
I've asked him if the Playstation take a normal keyboard, so that we can update from the living room (that's providing that's where the action is!) instead of him having to dash upstairs all the time!

MHD, I'm no more warped than usual fine. Thank you for asking. Nowadays, I'm more left with unanswered/unaswerable questions rather than feelings IYSWIM.

Good luck with the homebirth, Nickel

I'm bowing out and going back to lurking now.