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Philosophy/religion

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Doxologies, Delirium and Discussion: Religion Chat Thread number 3

1000 replies

nickelbabyhatcher · 05/04/2011 16:49

Here we are!

Roll up and sign in!

Oldies welcome, newbies welcome, anyone welcome!

It's basically a "what happened in church/spiritual life/anything else you want to chat about that's vaguely related (or not) to churchy stuff.

OP posts:
thejaffacakesareonme · 26/04/2011 21:36

I have a confession to make - I love the sound of a good organ. There's something I just really like about the really deep sound, especially when you can feel it through the floorboards. There's a bit of me that would even love to learn to play the organ. I enjoy many of the traditional hymns that have been mentioned and also had Arrival of the Queen of Sheba played as I went down the aisle when we got married. My sister and I had played it on the piano as kids and I knew that it would make my mum smile and relax even though she was nervous about being on show.

Having said that I also love many of the more modern praise songs. Which makes me wonder - why are they praise songs and not hymns? What makes something a hymn rather than a song? Many of the modern songs, in my opinion, sound dreadful on an organ and sound much better played by a band, especially the faster ones that sound good with a drum kit. To my ear different types of music just suit different instruments. It doesn't mean one type is better or worse than another, they are just different and give a greater breadth to the choice available.

blackeyedsusan · 26/04/2011 23:49

... but mhd i can't worship when life is crap and unfortunately it is crap quite a lot... when my aunt died I didn't want to say i will praise God in the good times and bad, because I wasn't praising god, , when i worry about my mums health yet again, i definatelly don't feel like praising god, so singing those songs would be a lie... usually all i want to do is tell him that his way of running the planet is completely totally utterly useless and what the hell does he think he is playing at and why the hell i got stuck with h who has just thumped me in the bloody head again. i need something that will drag me out of the crapiness of life and remind me that even though life stinks sometimes there is something higher no matter what i feel. that's just what works for me.

and i wasn't having a go, sorry if you felt that.

thanksamillion · 27/04/2011 09:44

We didn't get to do hallelujas on Sunday Sad but we do get to greet everyone with 'Christ is risen' and reply 'It's true, He is risen' for the next 40 days. And I mean everyone - the advantage of living in a country where most people identify themselves as (Orthodox) Christians.

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 09:48

"NIV is not a shit version. It's as accurate to the originals as RSV. Liking NRSV at the moment though, or The Message"
seriously, the compilers of NIV said that their original translation was rubbish!
the latest edition is much better, but it still lacks the poetry.
and the RSV is a dreadful translation! It's more like they've taken the Greek and translated it word for word, rather than phrase by phrase! It doesn't flow poetically, which is what I prefer when I read a bible - I want to feel the words, not justread them - even science textbooks have more poetry in than the RSV
I do love the Message translation though! [cgrin]

(disclaimer - this is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the editor or the archbish. [cgrin] )

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:11

milly - "Loving the translation comparing. I actually really like using different translations because sometimes they shed a completely new light on a passage that is really familiar, but generally I do use the NIV. The translation that people here use is one done in the 1900s and the language is pretty hard (even for native speakers - anything would be hard for me grin). I do come across a lot of missionaries who are die hard KJVers and I really struggle to understand why. Anyone like to enlighten me??"

(sorry for the mass quotes this morning - it's just easier for me to remember what you've all written)

I agree, using different translations is the best way to get a full picture of what's going on.
The NIV version (the 1984 version - I know that the latest version is much better) for me, is a clumsy, Americanized translation - a lot of the passages have been made more complicated (as they admittedwhen they simplified loads and loads of them in the new translation) than they need to be, and I think that detracts fro mwhat they are saying.
My favourite "everyday" translation is actually the Good News Version - and the one I recommend to adults buying children their first "proper" bible.
It's in simple, straight-forward, modern english, and doesn't miss great chunks out (although it does condense them - especially in the lineage passages - it doesn't go "oojit, suchand such's father who was doobrie's father, and then doobrie was born, and he was oojit2's father etc" - it just says something like "from Arbaham to David, this was the list of ancestors. then from this time to this, the list is ...etc" much easier.

The KJV has a beautiful poetry that can be found in the likes of Shakespeare. It was written in everyday English at the time, but (if you watch/read any of the histories that are going around at the moment), a lot of the translation was done deliberately poetically, so that the language would appeal to ordinary people, to make it feel awesome and inspiring.
There are also a few translations in there where the King is given priority (where the Greek might use a Higer Power as an example) but that was mainly because the Scholars who translated it didn't want their heads chopped off by undermining the King's divine majesty [cshock]
there are examples of writing in the margins of the translating pages, where they're translated a passage exactly and the "editor" has come along and made it more poetical.
That's one of the reasons why it's stayed with us so long - it has this simplicity that is real and genuine and human - perfect for every class of people.
It's only this century, where the everyday language we speak has changed so much, that the thees and thous seem out of date, seem ridiculous. Then you can say that it only now appeals to scholars, or the kind of people that laugh at foreign-language films in arty theatres. Obviously, that's not true, but many people said that it doesn't speak their language anymore, so they changed it.
Obviously, there are dangers translating to modern english directly from KJV (which is what the NKJV tried to do, and mucked it up someat chronic- old words with new words just doesn't work- it jars and ruins the flow).
You've got to keep the original meaning, and make it feel more relevant to the world we're in today.
of course, you also run the risk of making it too politically correct - ie missing out the whole context of the history behind it, so it's such a difficult task.
The Greek texts are the best record we have of the true evetns, so of course we go from there.
There are loads of times where the KJV (and new translations) texts have translated the Greek word for "people, generally of both sexes" to "men", because that's what the word for "people, generally of both sexes" was in those days, but it's not now, so the 20th century tranlators have gone "oh, look at that, the KJV is all patriarchal and forgetting about women" when in actual fact, the general accepted meaning of the word "men" has changed this century (and really, only properly within the last 20-30 years)
and the word they used for Adam and Eve and their "labours" - even in the latest NIV translation, they put "adam toils on the field" and "Eve's going to havea really painful labour and birth". in actual fact, for both meanings, the same Greek word is used - so surely it would make more sense for the word used to be "hard work" or "labour" for both Adam in the field and Eve giving birth!

Essay, sorry. [cblush]

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:12

Yah Yah Yah would make more sense than Yeah yeah yeah, instead of Allelujah [cgrin]

see wikipedia
Hallelujah means "Praise God" or "Prase Yah" [cgrin]

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:15

oh, yeah, at our church, we had David takign the service - he's lovely, really lovely, but he's old and a bit doddery, so he kept trying to get us to shout and stuff, allelujah, but he didn't make it clear when exactly he wanted us to do it, so we were all like "what, now? or not yet?" "is he going to say when?" and then he got frusttrated and told us off (in a nice way) for not joining in! [chmm]

[cgrin]

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:17

jaffa - good, good.
If you can play the piano, you should be able toplay the organ - you just have more than one keyboard, and one you play with your feet! [cgrin]

Hymns versus Praise Songs - the word hymn means Song of Praise/Worship, so i'll never understand why they call them different either - I think it's because the modernies think that Hymn sounds boring, whereas Praise Song sounds more modern and funky. [chmm]
I call "Praise songs" Hymns, because that's what it means to me, so i guess it's just personal preference (i do hate it, though, when modernies miss off the word Praise, so they become "Songs", even when they're talking about old fashioned hymns!

MaryBS · 27/04/2011 10:18

or even "OK, yah" :o

I wrote a praise song once... (apologies to disney, and to anyone who has heard it before, and mea culpa for producing such a 'work' :o)

The wonderful thing about Jesus
Knowing Jesus is a wonderful thing
His heart is full wide and open
He's our Saviour, our Lord and our King
He's bouncy bouncy bouncy bouncy
fun fun fun fun fun
The wonderful thing about Jesus is
That he's the only one,
He's the only one....

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:20

susan - i know what you mean.
:(

You have to spend those sad times praying to God that he'll help (or at the least, be there at your side) - then it's easier to use those words in more sombre tunes - that's where traditional psalm chants are helpful - you can put a sad tune to praising words, so that it feels more like you're saying "i know you're there for me God, but will you just please help me?"

MHDateallthechocolate · 27/04/2011 10:20

hehe Nickel I guess I come to it from an accuracy standpoint being a theology bod - RSV most accurate translation, I know it's shit poetry wise and ditto NIV, but I love the accuracy, the word for word thing - but like you really enjoy the poetry of the Message etc. What's your fave version?

BES - I'm so sorry if it came across as an attack on you, as I said in my post this wasn't directed to anyone, just felt a bit ermmm needy yesterday [cgrin]
And I do totally understand what you are saying. I think there's a difference somehow between saying 'I'm going to praise God yippee allelluia even when life is crap' and 'I'm going to still worship God because I still believe in him even though I am going through the most crap time and even though I want to shout and scream wtf is he doing' (and it's fine to do that in my opinion too - many of the psalmists did.) And there is something in coming before God and saying 'I love you anyway' in the midst of that awfulness which can be so freeing. I remember doing this when I nearly died of pneumonia at 7 months pregnant, after having it for the whole pg, and shouting at God why don't you let up, but he didn't heal me, but I said (muttering reluctantly) 'Yet I will still praise you, my Saviour and my God', and something in my soul flew somehow. My body never got better, but there is something powerful in this moment of almost submitting to God - of saying I know you're in the crap with me. So it's not praising him for the situation but despite. Do you sort of see what I mean? I'm so sorry for all the horrendous stuff you have to deal with Susan :( Shout and rant at God - it's OK. (here's an Un-MN xxx)

Off to friends - back later [csmile]

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:21

Mary [cgrin]

you've got to record it and put it on YouTube so I can hear what it's like [cgrin]

nickelbaalamb · 27/04/2011 10:25

I'm not sure what my fave version is, actually [cblush]
When we read the bible together, DH and I always have KJV, NIV and Good News open to compare, usually slating the hideousness of NIV (the reason we even look in the NIV is because we use that one at church)

another lovely translation is the New English Bible, but that's not on Bible Gateway - it was used in our church until the NIV was adopted.
modern english, but still poetic.

I have two favourites then - Good News for everyday, and KJV for poetry. (is that allowed?) [cgrin]

blackeyedsusan · 27/04/2011 10:55

mhd, didn't think you were getting at me [cwink]

what's that over there.. is it a giraffe?

i really was just saying what i like and helps me.

Different things help different people.

(i have a nasty, probably unfounded, suspicion that some people(not you mhd) sing these things when the worse they have suffered is not much at all.)

thejaffacakesareonme · 27/04/2011 11:07

Mary - I love that! We sing the Disney version all the time.

MaryBS · 27/04/2011 11:31

:) I don't sing things and put them on Youtube, you'll just have to imagine it!

nickelshornlamb · 27/04/2011 12:52

what tune is it?

thanksamillion · 27/04/2011 12:59

Just wondering if anyone's seen Baroque (or have I missed something and she's been whisked away by Prince charming??). We've had a whole musical discussion including organs and everything and she's not popped in.

nickelshornlamb · 27/04/2011 13:12

not seen her on MN, but she's been on FB.
I'll try and find her....

nickelshornlamb · 27/04/2011 13:22

sent her a PM on FB.

thejaffacakesareonme · 27/04/2011 13:40

Nickel - try putting Tiggers song into you tube

nickelbabe · 27/04/2011 13:49

ah, see, I know what you're on about now!
[cblush]

MaryBS · 27/04/2011 13:50
newlark · 27/04/2011 14:47

Grin at the tigger song - I like your words Mary but can't sing them fast enough!

We use the NIV at church but I've recently bought the New Living Translation which I rather like, particularly for reading longer passages as it seems to flow better. I also have a Good News Bible and KJV from my youth. I recall using the New English Bible at school too. My mother thinks no-one needs more than one bible and that should be the KJV (this was in response to my 4 year old dd having 4 different childrens bibles/books of bible stories by the side of her bed Grin)

MHDateallthechocolate · 27/04/2011 15:42

Look at that! A tiara! [cgrin]

I do actually agree about some of the more 'it will all be ok, I'm gonna jump and shout when I feel shit' songs and people singing these when they haven't really felt that depth of suffering. What I mean I suppose by 'I will worship you anyway' songs are almost songs of lament. I think there is a place for those and don't think there are enough of them around, but there is the odd one - a real depth needs to go into it I think (dh writes good ones [csmile] )
So they are very much in the style of some of the psalms of lament 'By the Babylonian river we sat on our knees and wept' type of thing. And I think there is something of a healing in singing out our suffering souls to God, almost groaning (like the Romans passage about creation groaning.)

I've found more and more that the closer I get to God in my suffering, the suffering doesn't go, the pain doesn't go (it just gets worse sometimes) but something happens, something profound, encounter with God in such a very deep way that it somehow supercedes the suffering - not makes it all better, not triumphalist 'oh God will take it all away and if he doesn't you are not praising properly' but transcending that.

Oh I'm aware this is all somewhat waffly ponceyness, but I think the psalmist sums it up with the 'deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls, all of your waves and breakers have swept over me'. It's knowing God there, at the core, at the centre of it all, even when we don't feel it. It's an overwhelming, compelling reality.

[cgrin]

Loving the tigger song!

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