Really moved by reaction of faithful to the Pope.

[bamboostalks]

Realise that there is a huge amount of negativity and vitriol on here atm with regards to the Pope's visit. However mumsnet is for all and there are plenty of Catholics who are pleased to see him here. This is a thread to celebrate this. I was really moved at the reaction of people in Glasgow yesterday. It was so emotional to see the babies hepd up for his blessing, he really did radiate a serene presence. Love his message as well, it is time to be proud to be a Christian. Hope all those going to see him have a fantastic time.

i'll tire of it when you do, dp.

I'd like to go back to yesterday's post about the "secret vatican document" Crimen Sollicitationis. Sorry to go over old ground but I really cannot let the gross inaccuracies go.

Joseph Ratzinger was not made a Cardinal until 1977 and was not appointed Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 1981, and so had nothing to do with the document linked to which was issued in 1962!

This document was never about covering up paedophilia but was about solicitation during the sacrament of confession. Here is an article about Crimen Sollicitationis but an extract from the article reads:

Media accounts sometimes presented the instruction as not concerned principally with sexual solicitation in Confession, but with denunciations of paedophilia, and reported interpretations of the oath of secrecy about the conduct of the trial as a generic oath of secrecy, contrary to what the instruction itself stated.

Crimen Sollicitationis was replaced in 2001 by Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela, a motu proprio, or document which was issued and signed by the Pope (at that time John Paul II) and not Cardinal Ratzinger.

There are so many innacuracies, misrepresentations and prejudices about this whole issue that it is really sad. Of course the complexities of the workings of a 2000 year old institution and of cannon law, don't help. It is hard enough for a committed motivated catholic to grasp never mind someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to look deeper. This is all compounded by the media who a la Dan Brown (they know what sells) are conspiratory theory hungry at best and anti-catholic at worst.

I posted this link on another thread but it is an interesting defence of cover-up accusations against the Pope.

I haven't mentioned the BNP since May, and as for homosexuals, if you're a true catholic you will share the popes teachings. Perhaps you have the bible according to Harriet Harmen.....?

So it's OK for a true Catholic to ignore the pope's teachings on birth control, but not on homosexuality, dp? Have I got that right?

Look, I'm not being dragged into an argument here. I've actually been sickened by the anti-catholic/pope threads and posts on here. Suggestions of all priests being child abusers, even all Catholics, it's been truly shocking. Worse than I've seen on facebook, and that's saying something.

I have been very inspired by the Pope's visit and his focus on the Christian tradition of this country which does seem to be diluting more and more which I find very sad. I have been delighted by his apologies for the appalling sexual abuse and completely acknowledge that this will be totally inadequate for the victims.

The church here on earth is very flawed but there are great and holy elements within it as people act on their faith. I hope and pray that within my lifetime we have more female emancipation with equal rights for men and women of faith, contraception instruction revised etc. but one must accept that any organisation with a billion followers is going to be hugely diverse and very challenging to unite. It will always have bad apples and expecting total perfection is unrealistic. What needs to be clear is our guidelines for dealing with these elements and I think we are working towards this.

Not trying to get you into any sort of argument daftpunk, just trying to understand what you are saying, as it appears on the face of it that you are choosing which bits of the pope's teachings to follow according to your own preferences (not to say prejudices). But if I'm wrong please explain.

oh i'm not a true catholic in the sense that i slavishly do what i'm told, i'm wildly conflicted by the whole thing, and haven't sent my child to a catholic school.

zepherine has a good question there, i think you should answer it.

I really don't see why I have to explain my contraception methods with on-line strangers.

And knowing you aitch, whatever I say you will want backed up with copies of my medical notes, photographical evidence, to include a close up of my husbands penis, plus blood samples from both of us.

I do not think that you need to follow every element of what the church says to be a Catholic, why should you? It is a culturally diverse and ever developing movement, it is not in aspic, preserved without challenge and change. Nor would I want it to be. I don't feel the need to defend aspects that I find ridiculous, I am privileged in that respect. In some parts of the world, that is not possible. What is important is our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I have mine within the guidance of the church as that is right for me.

what rot, dp. as usual, nothing like a straight answer to a straight question from you... no-one gives a shite about your contraception, more that you think it's okay to pick the nastier bits of catholicism and skip the stuff that might personally inconvenience you.

Bamboo I agree with you - few Catholics have no disagreement with any of the pope's teachings, and everyone is free to interpret their religion as they see best. But to do acknowledge that and then suggest that you cannot be a "true" Catholic unless you believe that homosexuality is wrong is a bit rich to say the least.

Well if that's the case Aitch those priests are in error (and I think the Pope would agree with me!)Certainly the church needs to do something about educating such people more acuarately on what their faith requires, but I still maintain that it is not the church's job to advise them to use condoms.

Sorry Aitch - that was in response to your last post on p.5 - hadn't noticed we were on p.6!!

Just a note on the current postings - most of us believe many things are wrong and still do them... It's trying to do what's right that's the important thing according to the Catholic faith. We all fail in many ways to live up to the ideal, and God is there to forgive us for it!
Nice post bamboostalks! And thank you Faithandreason for your excellent comments on that 'secret vatican document' - I wanted to write something about it myself as I could see that it wasn't saying what it was purported to say on here, but haven't had time to have a proper look.

Completely agree SWC, the mouthy pick and choose or so very carefully.

With regard to the comments on homosexuality, my own belief is that's one area of church teaching which is going to change in some way. To me, I take my most important teaching regarding it directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that homosexuality ''must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.'' (Catechism, 2358) and if I follow that (Catholic Church teaching) I don't see how I can be doing much wrong in anybody's book! It's funny how nobody ever mentions that part of the Catechism when the call the Pope a Nazi homophobe...

i think that for the most part this is a pretty measured thread, tbh swc. i am a catholic and i was moved by the pope's visit, or at least the response to it, but that doesn't mean that an MN thread can only discuss him in glowing terms. there are valid questions to be asked, many of which appear to be answered by faithandreason's fascinating article (and chime rather more with the excellent r4 doc i referred to earlier) and it's okay to ruminate on them i think.

wrt the homophobia i have always understood the church's position to be that of the catechism, and that it is not the 'fault' of the gay person to be gay but because of their predeliction it is their responsibility to be sexually inactive because it is not creative, and sex is for creation. (i think bishop devine said that just yesterday on the telly.)

certainly anyone using the church's teachings as an excuse to hate is really getting it badly wrong, afaic.

Agree with you Aitch

Agree with you too SWC! How boring am I tonight????

if there were a bunch of muslim women discussing the wearing of the hijab, would that be okay? because effectively that is what is happening here, i think most of us are catholic, just discussing our religion.

honestly, swc, you're a day late to this party...