Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools

[Busydadof2]

The Labour Party has proposed introduction of VAT on private schools.

In the scheme of things the money they will bring in from this is tiny compared with total expenditure on state schools, while it will drive more burden on the state system as some parents leave private schools. I think this is a populist ploy to get traditional Labour voters to vote for what is in any other sense a centrist party.

Have you considered signing this petition to make sure the policy gets scrutinised and the weight of public sentiment against it is known?

Change.org petition: Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools

www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

Various perspectives from the signatories of this vote come to mind and resonate with our own situation, including this: “I work in a state school with over 30 in a class and oversubscribed. My 2 kids went or go to private schools and we have sacrificed loads to do this. We are NOT wealthy, many of the kids at the school I work at live in bigger houses and have much more disposable income than we do. We chose to send our kids to private school rather than live in a bigger house instead of our semi detached on a main road. We holiday in the UK every year and I work full time. I buy my clothes on the high street or in charity shops. Many parents at the school my kids attend are in exactly the same situation. I agree there are some very wealthy parents there too and the addition of VAT will not even make an impact on them, they will pay it without batting an eyelid. All this will do is push the kids like ours back into an already oversubscribed state system, increase class sizes even more and create a bigger divide as private education will become truly elitist.”

My parents were born extremely poor in Africa. I'm talking 'walking 7km to school through uncleared paths in the village at the age of 4' poor. They worked their way right up and the turning point for my dad was a government funded scholarship and determination/grind to make the most of it. This has completely changed the fortunes of his village through endowed scholarships for many there, changed our generations trajectory through building generational wealth and teaching us to do the same. We have seen an emphasis on education, innovation and work ethic directly change 100s (if not 1000s) of lives in his generation and now ours and hopefully our childrens generation too. I dont hate on generational wealth. I have benefited from it, as have my sinlings and children - why start from scratch with each generation? Is the point not to build on the shoulders of your ancestors? And enshrine values that ensure this privilege is seen as an opportunity and responsibility?

Ffs my parents were illiterate immigrants, worked their arses off in factory jobs. Then eventually saved enough to buy a corner shop. I went to Uni as did my brother as above everything they valued education and told us our only way of getting a better life was getting an education.

We supported our parents with their business the parts they couldn’t do from being very young children! As we could read and write and speak English better than them.

I now send my kids to Private school, knowing the sacrifices my parents made to come to this country, this is my repayment to them.

Makes me wonder if we can do this in one generation what is the poverty trap all native English people find themselves in. Our life was not without trauma, dad was an alcoholic. But we still managed to get the point where my brother and I send 5 kids to private school and work out arses off. For the first time ever I won’t vote Labour. Robbing ba$tards.

@SabrinaThwaite you are absolutely correct.

Playing devils advocate, you could argue a career which requires a degree, potentially has better long term income prospects, so paying more for that degree with VAT on tuition is fair to contribute to state education?

Ultimately a career is a choice and by consequence so is university.

Personally I do not believe any education provision should be taxed, there is much lower hanging fruit the Government could go for without the implications of massive VAT rebate claims etc.

Yes - in reality, this is another populist vote (like brexit) which will only end up hurting the poorest. Parents sending children to Private school pay taxes towards supporting a state school place but don’t take it up, instead footing the bill at another school and creating an extra place at the state school. Since it is estimated that approx 25% of people at private schools will move to send their kids to state schools they will by virtue of their postcodes, or being able to choose postcode, send their kids to the best state schools again at the expense of poorer people. The amount Labour is able to claim from VAT on fees is a flash in the pan - it’s an attempt at sounding ‘of the people’ just like brexit, yet it is the people it’s going to hurt the most

Universities don't just teach undergraduates. They research all sorts of things, create vaccinations, encourage cutting - edge thinking and are one of the things the UK is famous for so they drive investment. In that way, universities' charitable status is assigned because they provide a common good. Private schools? Not so sure why. It's pretty common knowledge that many of them have to invest in ridiculous capital projects to actually spend all the money they get so they keep their charitable status, for the benefit of the few children in the country whose parents can afford to send them there.

I presume Labour's plan to charge VAT rather than remove their charitable status is so that these schools can still accept donations and legacies without paying tax on them (thereby basically still subsidising them).

Couldn’t agree with this more - just like Brexit, another populist move that will hurt the poorest the most

What don't you understand?

What you are referring to when you say the tax exemption they have with their charitable status. It's evident from your response to people who have replied to you that you and they are thinking of different things. I was wondering which exemption you are referring to.

Tragically, I can’t agree more with you

Absolute rot. Brexit has removed rights from every British person. VAT on school fees will cost a few people a bit more. This current govt has put us into recession and starved many people more or less to death in the name of saving money. Are we supposed to believe they are going to put the money they DON'T save on NOT charging VAT on school fees towards our kids' education?

Ah, but you weren’t playing devil’s advocate, were you?

Of course private schools are a choice.

Going to University is also a choice, some might even say a luxury.

University isn’t a choice if you want to be an engineer, where you’ll need to be chartered to progress - it’s a necessity. As it is for a multitude of jobs required to keep society functioning.

Ultimately a career is a choice and by consequence so is university.

Many university degrees aren’t directly vocational but produce an educated workforce which is vital for economic growth - I thought that’s what you wanted?

Do you object to all taxes or just this one? Under David Cameron and the conservative / lib dem coalition VAT went from 17.5% to 20%. Were they robbing bastards? Or just Labour?

I have just google state 6th form colleges in North Hampshire and the first 2 that came up offered Physics and maths. They also offered further maths and chemistry which are much more suitable for a potential engineering degree applicant than DT which is a soft subject.

I feel for those people who are going to struggle once their school fees go up. However I'm not signing a petition in aid of privately educated kids when there are children in Britain who do not have a bed to sleep in or breakfast in their bellies.

This policy does sound half baked, but if it even begins to chip away at our ridiculous two-tier education system that freezes social mobility in its tracks then that's a positive step for us as a society.

@SabrinaThwaite

Of course I was playing Devils Advocate, in my return question to you.

I noted you didn't answer whether those chartered jobs with decent prospects should pay more for that tuition privilege - necessity or not - to benefit those in state education earlier in their educational journey.

Of course I value an educated workforce for economic growth...you conveniently missed the part I said all educational provision should be free of tax....perhaps I value education more than you...!

What about those who leave school on apprenticeships whose jobs perhaps keep day to day society going more than degree linked jobs? Road workers / electricians / plumbers / hairdressers etc. Should their taxes subsidise these chartered degrees to be free of VAT?

Ridiculous to compare this to brexit, which damaged the rights and prospects of every citizen in this country.

This is just removing a tax break that shouldn’t have been there in the first place, that will affect a tiny proportion of the wealthiest and most privileged in society.

It’s also reductive to say that this will harm the poorest in society, if you mean by that that some poor kids will lose places in the “good” state schools. Precisely what happens to the very small proportion of people who this prices out (a small proportion of the already small proportion of kids who attend private schools) will depend on numerous factors that will be different in each local area.

In London house prices are already high and catchments already tiny near the best state schools - this won’t shift that dial against a backdrop of falling birth rates and people increasingly leaving London. Maybe some more kids will be tutored. Again, hardly going to be detrimental to their poor working class schoolmates.

You don’t like it because you’re going to have to cough up some more dosh or make a different choice for your kids. Don’t pretend you oppose it out of some concern for the poor.

Astonishingly little, it’s less than 1% of the education budget

That’s if it even amounts to that much. Some of the thinking is spurious

Yes, agreed, the comparison is just nonsense. Brexit has indeed affected the poorest more. Oly a tiny minority send their children to private schools- so it will affect the less well off among that tiny minority- but certainly NOT the poorest in society who could not even begin to consider educating their kids privately.

We all pay taxes towards schools, even people who don't have children, but that's the way the system works.

Private schools should not have charitable status as they perform a service only to pupils who can afford it, not for the greater good.

I think you make a valuable point about British culture. The public here are extremely cosseted compared with 80% of the world’s population, even those at the bottom. I was listening to a podcast about Kenya the other evening and it really stuck out just how much Kenyans value education, they’ll sell their last possession so their child can attend school, and the children at school feel so lucky to go they are incredibly engaged and take it seriously. I imagine this is the case in many developing countries. What’s our excuse here in the U.K.?

The astronomical rise in fees over the past 10 years actually means many people in the middle with 2 or more kids really cannot afford private school - at least in London. If 4% of the population attending private school is what is stopping social mobility - there is a dire lack of imagination in this country. And the families on the margins scraping to attend really are not the enemy and not the reason people can not feed their kids. And in fact are the people Labour is hoping will scrape a little harder to remain there - to help cover their lack of a plan. Apparently, results in a quarter of a teacher per school IF they raise the entire £1.6billion. I dont have a problem with that but far more needs to be done and no one seems to be asking them what else they will do. Cos divisive politics works and is a vote winner.

Every person who opts to pay for private healthcare reduces the NHS waiting list for others - whilst still paying their taxes. That is not a bad thing. We should incentivise them to do that more, particularly for low complexity/high volume procedures - alongside a complete disruption of NHS funding and efficiency that works for the bulk of the population because the current model is not working.

What is the social mobility plan for the nation?

Clue: It clearly has to involve actions targeted at the 96%. Reducing the 4% utilising private education/healthcare to 3% will not touch the edges

I'm thinking of the tax exemption for charitable status, not sure how much clearer I can be.

"the 1,300 schools with charitable status pay no corporation tax, capital gains tax or stamp duty. They also benefit from capital gains and inheritance tax relief, and gift aid on donations."

Tories insist private schools need tax breaks – but take it from an expert, they’re raking it in | Rebecca Boden | The Guardian

I’m amused that people think this will ‘help social mobility’, do you think the wealthy are going to sit back and sigh as their child attends a dive comp somewhere? Of course they won’t. They’ll push up house prices in good catchments, lure teachers from the state system to work as tutors for home education, and increase pressure on the tiny handful of remaining grammar schools until less wealthy candidates no longer get a look in.

Let’s increase grammar schools, and means test them.

OK so you're not talking about the Labour proposal to put VAT on school fees?

Just the dropped proposal on charitable status?