To ask you to sign this petition about women's prisons

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead18]

You may remember recently the case of Karen White, who is physically a man but self id'ed as a women. White was sent to prison after carrying out a vicious attack and was subsequently housed in the female estate. Within days White raped 2 women and thank god, is now housed in the male estate.

However, there are simply no guarantees that this situation would not happen occur. If self id became the law over here, women in prison,l who are often vulnerable & as a group are statistically to be more likely to have experienced sexual assault will be most at risk. In Ireland where self id is already law transwomen are housed in the male estate. Over here, where self id isn't even law, we have gone one huge step further than Ireland by allowing fully in tact males into the female estate.

In prison showers and getting dressed is open and shared. Personally I could not imagine personally having to shower naked in front of a male bodied stranger. It's bad enough in front of women. I think it says a lot about a society that carefully considers the privacy, dignity and safety of it's most vulnerable members. As I understand it, there are currently male bodied prisoners in every female estate.

If you feel, as I do that prison rules should reviewed, please take a look at and sign this
petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Nobody said it was akin, Datun.

What is it then?

Give me the correlation. Not allowing males free access to incarcerated females…is?

Ps I have no idea what you mean about the DM outrage.

WereFox you wrote:

[first para is quote from another poster]Oh but rat is only trying to make sure people remain moderate and not go too far to one side or the other. I'm not sure how rat thinks comparing ordinary women to Nazis and Britain first is being moderate and not going too far but I'm absolutely sure she will have an excellent explanation. Positive.

Yes, because nobody goes from zero straight to genocide, do they? The Nazis didn't start by saying "elect us and we'll murder six million people". They started by saying "These are our rights and those other people perhaps don't deserve them so much and ooh aren't those other unfortunate people there an unnecessary burden on you?," aka, othering.

If we were not meant to read this as supporting Rat in her contention that gender critical feminists were like Nazis, how, pray, were we meant to read it? Because I'm not seeing any other readings here.

Anyway, getting the thread back on track.

If you think the current rules which apparently allow a rapist still in possession of his penis to be placed in a women's prison where he goes on to sexually assault several of the women inmates might be in need of tightening up, or at the very least reviewing, please sign the petition.

If you think this situation is fine and dandy, well, not quite sure what one can say to that.

This thread is getting more bizarre by the second.

Quite theorum...and here's how to do it....

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Tickled to hear Datun is the brains of the operation! Delighted to know there's someone in clear command! Now I just need to know what the operation is and how we know it's been successful?

I'd vote datun for leader. She certainly knows how to make the other side show themselves up ... and she doesn't need to resort to calling people Nazis either.

Sixteen pages on and Rat is still at it @@.

Signed.

I'd vote datun for leader

Yup...she has the patience of a saint

I'm also delighted to be known as the brains of anything! 😆

Does it not happen often datun

Do people in real life not go

'Its ok...datuns arrived'

(I do that with a few posters actually...sit there going 'oooooo wonder if randomposter has seen this , cant wait til they see it and make a comment...wonder if i should pm them purely to be helpful obviously ')

that I would never stand by and watch people paint other people as less than them.

Except you do that to women, don't you, all the time, because you don't care what they feel. Only your woke male friends matter.

Er, how's your reading comprehension Eresh? I don't mean to be rude, but perhaps you'd like to post a single example of my doing that in the full year at least I've been having this debate with you?

So, one example of me painting women (bearing in mind I AM one) as less than me. As deserving less than I deserve, or, just to make it easier for you (because I've clearly never said I deserve something other women don't, and it's basically impossible to "other" a group you belong to), how about you try to find me an example where I say women deserve less than woke men deserve?

That might make it easier for to to find something to misrepresent so you should thank me, but the pretty obvious truth is I've never said anything of the kind. My position is and has always been that women deserve privacy, dignity and safety, just like everybody does.

Honestly, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall. But I checked how many signatures you've got and seeing as I'm not exactly shooting myself in the foot I may as well carry on. Perhaps one day someone will admit to at least understanding what I'm saying, rather than this determination to paint me as having said something different entirely.

Hahaha, who am I kidding? If course that will never happen!

Well Rat, maybe the time that you said arguing with several gender critical feminists was like playing chess with a pigeon? That's kind of painting other women as lesser than, no? It's not just me who thinks you have an unwarranted superiority complex.

You're sneering at others on every thread you go on. I've just seen you doing it only this morning on the one about the self IDing "black" actor. So give it a fucking rest.

Er, how's your reading comprehension Eresh?

Haha you even managed to do it in that post! 😁

My position is and has always been that women deserve privacy, dignity and safety,just like everybody does.

Some of what you post almost makes sense but then we get to this. How can you say that you're in favour of preserving a woman's right to privacy, safety and dignity if you're also happy for a female prisoner who it is quite likely has experienced male violence and possibly sexual assault or rape, to be forced to shower naked with a self-identified male who has no grc and has had no surgery who could well have been incarcerated for a sexual offence against women? And what's more, you are not in favour of feminist groups having any say in this whatsoever hence why you are up in arms about this petition. And you dare call yourself a feminist.

Rat You display your attitude to women by putting men ahead of them in a situation that's dentrimental to women.

Your innocence protesting afterwards doesn't change that.

You don't want people to sign this petition. The lack of logic is that even your position, demands a review of the policy. Your position is to let certain transwomen in prison in (TV licence non-payers) and not others.

In which case sign the petition. Because, at the moment, entry is not based on crime.

It's highly unlikely that a vulnerable male would be put in prison for TV licence evasion.

Rat, I don’t feel private, dignified or safe when sharing changing facilities with unknown males, however nice they might be.

I don’t see why I should get over it, rather than the males acknowledging that that’s fair enough and asking for a different solution.

So, I also don’t think it remotely fair to force women prisoners to share such facilities with males.

The only people who should oppose this petition are those who think the current rules are correct as they stand and fit for purpose. Asking for women's groups to be consulted and the effect on women to be considered isn't saying that the interests of trans prisoners shouldn't be considered, fgs.

As it stands, rules which allow trans sex offenders into a women's prison serves nobody's best interests. Rather than any chance of reform and rehabilitation, White was enabled to reoffend, so now has more years in jail. Bad for everyone, him as well as the women he abused.

Here's a nonce in the female estate over here! . www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6179341/Outrage-transgender-child-groomer-legally-female-womens-jail.html

I can only assume rat and were think this is fine and dandy.

If you would like to fight against the opportunity to nonce in female estates where there are children, please sign here

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Our woodland friends are conspicuous by their absence. Nothing to say?

Bump

Last night I watched 'Doing Money,' whilst reading Mumsnet. It's a true story and very distressing.

I read this post below taken from a poster on the refuge thread:

What the staff say officially when questioned is a whole lot less relevant than what women using and needing those services think and want.
I am struggling to hold back tears at you all fighting for women in refuge. I had to apologise to a trans, literally man with penis in no way acknowledging any element of female, because I freaked out hearing his voice. Every one hated me for being cruel. She, well actually he, was beside himself with hurt at what I'd done to him, I was crying and begging him to forgive me. This was supposed to be a place of safety

I've been in a DV situation, plus worked in a refuge. It was a while ago now. I understand that response but I don't think you need to have experienced DV to empathise. I also worked with homeless organisations for years. Staff were very mixed in terms of empathy. For some it was a job not a vocation. Many were desensitised. It's partly why service users must be listened to, over and above the voices of service providers.

FYI that thread also referenced a group of people who said they would picket a refuge, if it wasn't trans inclusive. In the words of a certain doctor...."let that sink in."

Anyway after this post I read the Canadian spa & waxing articles and I have to say, the tears did fall. I can't remember the last time ai cried tbh. It was probably sensory overload.

There are many injustices in this world and these are just some of them.

The reason I mention the refuge post is because Mumsnet gave a voice to a recent refuge service user. For many reasons, it's much harder for the voices of women in prison to be heard. So please sign the petition and give a voice to those women.