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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
samG76 · 02/11/2015 16:51

I've just read the petition in full - I particularly liked the bit where the Norwegian Ombudsman (clearly an expert in Jewish law) gives his view on the subject. It just makes him look a bit of a prat. I might as well say that Muslims should accept that hygiene is better nowadays than in the 7th century, and therefore pork should be halal. Or that we should get with the times and accept eugenics.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 17:10

That's not the petition- it's an associated article. And there's no reason, presumably, that the Norweigan Ombudsman might not also be knowlegable about Jewish law? Or have advisors who are?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 17:13

Not eating pork does no harm to anyone else. And the eugenics comment is just silly.

WorraLiberty · 02/11/2015 17:48

samG76 "Those who don't want to circumcise their children generally don't, so the only people it will affect are those who do."

No, thankfully it will affect the children who they force the procedure upon.

That's the whole point of the petition.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 18:07

Infant circumcision is one of those things you can't imagine anyone explaining to an alien,isn't it. "When a human male is horn, he has a protective layer of skin over the head of his penis. So many human parents have it cut off. What's that you say? Why? Oh, because God wants us to. Remember God? I told you about Him. He's the one who created us in His image and thinks we're perfect. Well, He thinks men are perfect. Apart from that little bit that somehow got left on by mistake- we have to finish the job for Him by cutting it off. But it's OK, we usually use anaesthetics now"

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 18:09

Does the circumcision have to be when the child is a baby and unable to give consent? Why can't it be left until the child is of an age where they can agree to it? Surely that would be more meaningful anyway.

Doing it when a child is a baby gives the impression that those doing it see their 'children' as property rather than individuals.

It's like woman not having the same rights as men in some religions - it's old fashioned and has no place in modern society.

The discussion about health benefits is completely pointless and irrelevant. The main issue is surely to do with imposing an operation that is irreversible on someone else when they can not give consent.

Bringing children up to wear certain clothing or to only eat certain food or whatever is different as an individual can choose not to do those things when they are adults. You can't choose to put your foreskin back on Hmm

samG76 · 02/11/2015 18:30

BetrandRussell - I think you are confusing Greek and Jewish philosophy. Jews don't believe we are made perfectly, nor does anyone suggest that the foreskin is a mistake. Otherwise Jews would insist on gentiles having a brit, whch we don't.

SweetAdeline · 02/11/2015 19:30

All that needs to be said is that it should be illegal to perform non medically essential surgery on someone who is too young to consent.

What about tongue tie? I had my dd's tt snipped at 5 weeks because although she was gaining weight well, breast feeding her was very painful.
I'm not comparing it to circumcision but would be interested in the view of this from those who believe in the above ^.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 20:21

"Does the circumcision have to be when the child is a baby and unable to give consent? Why can't it be left until the child is of an age where they can agree to it?"

Re Timing - In Islam, it depends on culture and country but circumcision is usually done around the age of 7. It needs to be done before puberty because (apparently) erections make healing difficult and much more painful.

They make a big song and dance about it, with the boy dressed up in a white "prince" dress and paraded around town (which they all love) and there is a big party in the evening when the actual circumcision often takes place (Yes, they actually do the cutting right there, in front of people. At least that's how it was done back when I was going to such evenings about 30 years ago). Then the child kind of lies back in a rather royal bed/throne while people come and give their gifts to him. There is sometimes a clown, music, etc.

I can imagine your horror as you read these lines Grin but trust me when I say it is all very festive and the circumcised boys never look traumatised. I can't even remember seeing a single tear tbh.

Re consent - I don't know how much is explained to them beforehand, but boys are not shocked when their genitals are exposed and the professional 'cutter' approaches them, so I imagine a certain number of explanation must have taken place. I can ask men I know who have been circumcised in such ceremonies, if anyone is interested.

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 20:22

Sweet. The tongue tie op is for the child's benefit so I don't see that as similar at all. Confused

FunkyPeacock · 02/11/2015 20:33

Cote - surrounding child abuse with pomp and ceremony does not stop it being child abuse

SweetAdeline · 02/11/2015 20:34

Cardinal maybe if you'd read my post properly you wouldn't be so Confused.
In my dd's case it wasn't "medically necessary", or necessarily for her benefit to have it snipped - she was gaining weight well and I had it snipped because she was causing me pain when feeding. I also said I wasn't comparing it to circumcision, I know it's not similar. I was just wondering if people thought it should be illegal as it wasn't "medically necessary" nor did she consent.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 20:35

"The discussion about health benefits is completely pointless and irrelevant. The main issue is surely to do with imposing an operation that is irreversible on someone else when they can not give consent. "

Of course health benefits are relevant. It is parents' privilege and responsibility to make medical decisions about their children, weighing up risks and benefits.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 20:37

Funky - Equating circumcision with child abuse is just your opinion, nothing more. Clearly many other people disagree, including British lawmakers.

FunkyPeacock · 02/11/2015 20:42

Cote - 'just' my opinion you think which is not shared by anyone else whatsoever? Confused

Clearly there are those who disagree with me including you but I'm not convinced I'm in the minority here

TelephoneIgnoringMachine · 02/11/2015 20:44

I've signed & will share on FB.

Surely God made the human body perfect in His own image?

And if yoy don't believe in God, why would you support any kind of genital mutilation, except on specific medical grounds.

UncertainSmile · 02/11/2015 20:54

I'd equate it with child abuse

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 21:00

I'm a lifelong atheist and DS isn't circumcised but frankly I can't get worked up about what other parents do because (1) it seems safe and leads to no problems for the vast majority, and (2) it has a wide range of benefits.

If it was such a terrible thing, do you really think men would do it to their boys? In a male-dominant place like the Middle East?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 21:03

"Of course health benefits are relevant. It is parents' privilege and responsibility to make medical decisions about their children, weighing up risks and benefits"

So circumcision is never for religious reasons- just for medical ones. Yep. I believe that!

SirChenjin · 02/11/2015 21:03

Signed.

As always though, religion will prevail - no matter how bonkers or abusive it is.

LumelaMme · 02/11/2015 21:03

Way upthread someone said
Circumcised men can't even masturbate without lubrication.
That is total bollocks. Total and utter.

I'd be inclined not to sign any petition that claims circumcision is as bad as FGM.

And truly, calling people, many of whom belong to one or other of two religions, 'uncivilised barbarians' is really not going to help this debate along at all.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 21:04

"it has a wide range of benefits."

No it doesn't.

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 21:04

sweet I had read your post. It's good that your DD wasn't suffering any health problems from being tongue tied but surely it's still in her interest to have it done. You presumably were anticipating her having the normal problems associated with being tongue tied even if she appeared to be ok at the time. if you are 100% adamemt that you only did it for your benefit then I'm not sure what I think. Surely you must have at least thought that the benefits of her being Brest fed by you outweighed having her tongue tie snipped?

I don't see it as the same as removing a healthy bit of a boys wildly for religious reasons.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 21:05

Bertrand - You really need to read those studies I linked to. Putting your head in the sand and singing "No no no no" is not a convincing argument Smile

SirChenjin · 02/11/2015 21:07

It has a range of benefits in countries where water, soap and condoms are not readily available. In the UK and other developed countries - not so much, and you have to balance that against the fatalities, pain, and other long term damage it causes.