I have been called racist. I want to argue my case against this charge in very precise, pedantic terms - so here I am.

[monkeytrousers]

Mehdismummy, please tell me why I am a racist?

"showed me the koran and how allah in fact thinks that women should be in fact treasured"
sorry, this made me laugh,

Impressed that you took back the racist comment, MM.
Takes character to admit a mistake.

Shame I missed the deleted Islam thread and regarding
circumcision, it seems to be a matter of belief:
Some people believe it is important for religious reasons.
Other people believe that any such 'interference' is wrong and 'child abuse'.

Neither side has any conclusive evidence that it matters either way.

Just to add, my brother has been circumcised, for medical reasons, it has not interfered with his life at all. This idea that it makes masturbation more difficult is ludicrous! My brother happily played the field when he was younger and has now settled down and fathered a son of his own. In fact he was rather proud that he had this "unique" willy, it was one of his chat up lines.

And I do think that people should be able to voice opinions about religion or race without being called names. I've entered into many a debate on my own religion and have been called stupid for even believing in the first place. But it's all the fun of the debate. Don't stifle a good debate by making people too afraid to criticise. One of the few reasons I love this country is that it is not afraid to criticise.

dh is too (was born in n am) i cant remember what un circum is like

A little late with my valuable contribution there. I see it has moved on a little.

Just curious as to why anyone has to respect people's beliefs? I mean, I am generally a very polite person and I try to avoid offending anyone. I would prefer to refrain from tackling a Christian, for example, in the street to tell them that I thought they were nuts. After all I've never told my MIL that. But if engaging in a debate about a religious matter, why should someone not express an opinion and question their beliefs?

Is questioning the same as disrespecting though anyway? I don't think so.

just saw this!

Don't think MT was racist or made any particularly vile comment about islam.
Mehdismummy, honey you were being overly sensitive I think...

Just wanted to add (correct me if I'm wrong Mehdismummy)
Some of us here are muslim by birth/mariage/practicing or not/believers or not/lapsed/soul searching etc....
We have in common intimate knowledge of muslim practices because we live them daily.
We are emancipated and living in a free society but still have traditions deeply rooted in what our mothers and grand mothers passed on to us.
We argue and question those practices and often have to fend off misinformed comments.

I think that's what happened here.

Like all practical advice threads, the circumcision threads should actually give practical info to the OP so she can make a decision.
So posts concentrating on how the practice is a mutilation, although they form a perfectly valid opinion miss the point somehow.

Neither do I peachy. But it often seems to be seen as one and the same thing.

This is the whole problem with carrying discussions around the board.

MM has retracted the racism accusation.

MM HAS RETRACTED THE RACISM ACCUSATION

AND if I rightly recall, the crux of the argument between MM and MT on the deleted thread was NOT about male circumcision, it was about female genital mutilation and whether it could be defined as an Islamic practice, given the fact that it is not decreed within Islam or the Q'uran BUT has been widely adopted within Islamic communities as they built upon pre-existing tribal customs.

So contunuing a discussion about whether male circumcision is islamic, as a way to 'stick up for' MT or MM is a red herring.

(and - for the avoidance of doubt) both MT AND MM were strongly against GM, of course.

Slim - x-posted.

I will shut up now...

Thank christ for Blu!!

This thread is making my eye twitch - and I'm not even mad nor nuffin'.

What JV said. And Blu of course.

no one intersted in my hs cock then?
ill oput it on ebay

how many more times does it have to be said i did not mean racist. I also think mt is entitled to her opinion but also would like her to read the koran too(will send you a copy if you like mt). Madness. I dont understand why you thought my post was funny. It was a great help to me to speak to the iman. I actually thought dh behaviour was because it was ok in his religion when in fact it was completly the opposite. So again for everyones benefit i am sorry to have called mt a racist. Squonk you are gorgeous. Thanks for book btw

glad it arrived safely. You started it yet?

might be cod how much were you looking for!( one can never have enough!)

no just trying to preparing for this disciplinary this afternoon. Too stressed to read! Did you get yours?

yes... did you not get my email?

Good luck this afternoon. You didn't do anything wrong and you should hold you head up high and explain what happened.

Let us know how you get on.

(didn't realise it was today)

will do. Its at three so fingers crossed

Mercy, (and others of course) you may be shocked to learn that 'clitorectomy' was routinely carried out in Europe and the US in the second half of the 19th century to correct what were deemed as typical 'feminine weaknesses' such as melancholy, hysteria, unsanity, epilepsy; to eliminate or cure masturbation, kleptomania and lesbianism, actual lesbianism.

The last clitorectyomy to be carried out in England was in the mid 1940s to correct an 'emotional disorder' on a 5 year old girl.

Was actually thinking of getting DS done - DH was done when he was 18 as an emergency case - rushed in after his first sexual encounter - put him off it for a long time after that I can tell you - flash backs to pain etc and blood everywhere - can't have been a bundle of laughs for the girl either - anyway year later and thousands of pounds in therapy bills and he is nearly ok - mentally and physically - he really wants to get DS done just in case and I think I agree with him - to me it isn't like female circumcision - DH enjoys sex unlike women who have been circumcised (I presume) and as far as I am aware pleasuring himself isn't an issue! I mean he has no problems with it! His life could have been so different if someone had had the balls to get it done when he was young!

Its funny us women getting all het up over it - all the guys I know wh have had it done don't have a problem with it - one who had it done when he was 7 said he felt like he was missing something but found girls seemed to say they liked it and that weighed in his favour so he was quiote pleased that he had had it done in the end!

MT's "The last clitorectyomy to be carried out in England was in the mid 1940s to correct an 'emotional disorder' on a 5 year old girl.

Clitorodectomies are still done, privately and illegally, in the UK, probably on a daily basis, MT. It is one of the huge failings of feminism that we have failed to SCREAM our anger about this fact.

What kind of fuckwits are we that we can allow 'cultural sensitivity' to excuse us from preventing the mutilation of a fucking child?

I'm ashamed of myself, whenever I think of it.

Onebat - i thought that there had been serious initiatives against this - including making it illegal? Though would agree that it has happened more recently that 1940.

I also think it should be an illegal act against a british citizen - i.e parents can't take children abroad. I thought the law was being adjusted to cover that - and teachers were being asked to report on children at risk??

From what I have read and seen, Blu,this initiative has taken the form of some gently-worded posters and a bit of very limp 'liaison'.

i don't think there has been a single prosecution, has there? (Would be delighted to be proved wrong)

Yes, I just wanted to make the point that not too long ago this kind of misogyny (there is no other word for it really is there?) was instituational within western culture. It is a problem endemic within largely 'patriachal' cultures, which our culture is less of now, but which Islamic (and other religious) culture still is.

Blu, it is illegal, no reputable doctor will do it, but very often doctors wouldn't have done it anyway. The Female Genital Mutilation Act also makes it illegal to take women out of the county to have the procedure done. Of course, that hasn't stopped it.